Titles of Flip Discs being test marketed... (1 Viewer)

[Will_B]

I'm writing from the Boston area, one of the test markets. And I'm writing to say, I've been test-marketed!

I entered Newbury Comics and went to the hi-res section, nothing there...started to think maybe not all shops would be involved in the experiment. Then I spotted a tri-sided display at the end of an aisle up near the front of the store, with a silouette of a head and a picture of an eye and an ear and the exclamation "CD & DVD ON ONE DISC" or something. It had mini racks attached with several of the flipper discs for sale (pardon me I mean "DualDisc"), with Newbury Comic's bright pink sticker announcing the sale price of only $12.88! Regular sticker below had $16.99 list price, which is still decent.

Looked for Sheryl Crow, no luck, but I was mildly interested in David Bowie's Reality (not as good as Heathen IMO) so I picked it up and was pleased to find they're using some new fangled CD case, same size as a CD case, but with a really cool transparent latch on the right. Also the rightmost edge is softly curved. But essentially same size.

Once it was in my hand, I was approached by a man who had been standing a few rows away observing, and asked to take a ~7 page survey about what I had in my hand in exchange for FIVE WHOLE DOLLARS. That's a pretty huge discount on top of the $12.88 sale price, so I said sure and he gave me a clipboard and asked me a couple questions to make sure I wasn't an employee of a music store or any record label or advertising company. The dude put me at ease by pretending (I suspect) that he was really new at this survey job. Maybe. Anyhow:

The survey was focused as much on what attracted me to the kiosk as the product itself. Questions about what made me walk over to the display, what I knew about the product from looking at the display graphics/text, and opinions of whether I liked the way the display looked. I answered generally positively all around - I do graphic design and I could see that all around this was an attractive display that was probably pretty expensive judging by the plastics used and so forth. I felt the poster's eye and ear concept was good.

The survey then asked about the product. Did I know what I was buying, on a scale of Definately to Sort of? Did I understand what was on the DVD side (again on a sliding scale of understanding)? I had to be honest that I was not quite sure. Until I had it in my hand, for example, I assumed it was CD on one side, and DVD-A on the other. So I was and continue to be surprised about that.

And the part you'll all want to know about: It asked what kind of extras I wanted to see on the DVD side. Did I want concert footage? Sure. Did I want music videos? Maybe. Did I want multichannel music in high resolution? ABSOLFREAKINGLUTELY. Did I want Rom materials for my computer or weblinks? NO! Did I want nude picture of Avril Lavigne's bottom? Hell yes.

What made me want this product the most?
"I'm always looking for multichannel material, especially from current artists!" I wrote. Nudge nudge.

Name and email address requested for verification purposes.

And with that, I was given an evelope with five dollars inside (and I think I spotted some fine print which said the first 25 people answering the survey at that location got a $25 gift certificate, or a chance to win a $25 gift certificate, I'm not sure. Anyway I got five dollars and that ain't bad.

Now, what are my thoughts now that I have this David Bowie Reality home with me?

1. David Bowie has always been a multimedia sort of artist, so I could easily see how a person like him would put out good product in this Dual format. The extras on the DVD side of Reality include a film with four video performances of songs, as well as the audio only 5.1 album. And some extras like a pic gallery, bio, discography, and some Rom content. I haven't watched it yet.

2. I suspect I will still prefer SACD for simple, straightforward playback of multichannel albums. I am anticipating that it will be a pain in the arse to play the audio portion of this DVD -- I am anticipating I'll have to turn on my monitor and go through a menu. That bites. I can do it, because my player happens to be the Pioneer DV-563A that everyone has, but, it seems like this Dual format will be exactly the same kind of pain in the arse that DVD-A is. So, if I really really loved this album, I'd still FIRST look for it on SACD.

3. I really like the new jewel box. Almost enough not to throw it away.

4. I really really like the sale price. $12.88 is lower than the SACD version of this particular album.

5. I am concerned that the performance film on this particular album has been edited for length. I hear rumors there was an eight-song film of Reality that aired on cable. This disc provides a four-song film of Reality. Is it the same film, but cut since they can't manage to fit everything onto the disc? Might be. If so, then I hope I don't like the film so much that I will one day be looking for a regular DVD of the whole film. Seems that the DVD side will be best when it only has a few videos on it.

6. I am wondering if the 5.1 mix on the DVD side will be in high fidelity like a real SACD or DVDA, or if it is some half-baked, only marginally-improved version.

7. I am wondering if the 5.1 mix on the DVD side will output through the digial coax. I suspect it will, unlike a real DVDA or SACD.

 

[Will_B]

Here's a few pics, hosted temporarily on a server that can handle the high traffic of this message board (for awhile at least):

 

[Will_B]

There was also a handout which had a FAQ, which gave the following URL for more info:

http://www.dualdisc.com

 

[LanceJ]

Will: How come you didn't use & listen to the disc? I would have liked to see how the Dolby track sounded, even if it isn't a high resolution format. And did the CD side work O.K. in all of your CD players?

LJ

 

[Buzz Goddard]

The CD side has worked fine for me in all the players I have tried it in (including boom boxes, PC drives, car and DVD players).

Reality sounds pretty good, and I prefer the immersion of the DD tracks (448kbps) to the stereo (PCM 48k, 16bit), but then I am partial to surround.
It is intricate enough material that I would really like to have an advanced resolution version of the surround tracks.

 

[Will_B]

LanceJ I wanted to report as soon as I had it.

I've listened to it now, and watched it. And I am convinced that this is may be the easiest way for artists who have an interest in elborate (but perhaps unmarketable) music videos to easily get their videos out to fans. Having both the multichannel album and the videos on the same DVD side of the disc really "empowers" my computer. It's like the concept of "album" now means "a database of the album and some really neat films." I could see where I'd get a DualDisc from artists who are really into video, like David Bowie or Kate Bush or whomever.

True, DVDA offers videos too, but it needs a new piece of equipment, whereas this just pops into a regular DVD drive.

As for the sound quality LanceJ, I felt that the 5.1 multichannel was not as deep and rich an experience as a real SACD or DVDA disc. I should not judge based on only one album, because perhaps I just didn't like the engineering, you know? But my impression was that the sound was a bit better than CD, but not incredible. It sounded like a CD but with multichannel. On my system, the bass wasn't as good, likely because my receiver's conversion from 5.1 to 5 (since I dont own a subwoofer) is just not as good as the internal 5.1 to 5 conversion of my SACD player. But that's my receiver's problem, not a problem with the disc.

The film portion wasn't in 5.1, it was just Dolby Surround, and that was actually fine.

 

[LanceJ]

Thanks Will.

And just a minor nitpick: except for the very first dvd-audios from about three years ago, since then every dvd-audio I've personally seen allows owners of plain old dvd-video players to watch any included video material.

LJ

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Which master tape?

 

[John Kotches]

Michael,

The 48K masters of course

Cheers,

 

[Jesper]

Hi John,

Bullseye

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The analog tape that exists for most of the worhwhile records...

 

[LanceJ]

I had a semi-scary thought a few days ago: I figure a survey like this will take at least two months and probably more.

During this time, how many more dvd-audio titles will be released, if they are considering putting all future dvd-audios on this format?

I don't think I'm being too paranoid because very soon after the announcement of the flipper disc that was made last summer, suddenly most previously announced titles with specific dates changed to those three frustrating letters, "TBA".

What do you guys think?

And in light of this, and 1) since I don't even have a center channel or subwoofer, 2) my four current speakers don't even start to match sonically, and 3) because of today's lousy economy, recently my living situation changed drastically (having your head smack up against the wall in between your rear channels in a 14X11ft bedroom does not make for an airy & satisfying surround experience!) today I dismantled my half-assed 4.0 surround system by boxing up my Pioneer 656A player & rear channels and putting them in the closet. Nope, this was not a fun experience, but looking at that unused equipment day after day really sucked. :frowning:

LJ

 

[robertLP]

I see some guys are already taking advantage of the limited availability of these discs & re-selling them on ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...3&BasicSearch=

If this is done on a wider scale, this could pose a problem for the record companies as they won't be able to truley measure the interest of these discs in the test markets...

Rob

 

[Justin Lane]

These discs being sold on Ebay were still probably purchased from one of the retailers in the test markets, meaning it is counted as a sale. Selling on Ebay can only help the dual disc format succeed.

J

 

[Felix Martinez]

I'm assuming you were listening to the Dolby Digital 5.1 track, not the hi-res option?

 

[Phil A]

It is a common misconception that all the software and hardware interfaces out there magically select what one wants to listen to. Try putting in a copy of "Harvest" and guessing which way you need to point the cursor to. Some players are better than others at allowing user controls. If one prefers stereo (vs. just hitting some buttons) it is generally much more difficult, especially if the hi-rez track is in the DVD-V portion.

 

[John Kotches]

Phil,

I use either "Group" or "Top Menu", followed by 2.

There are some very poorly implemented players, such as the Marantz DV-8400 which are exceptions to the rule. With this player, the beef is equally valid with SA-CD for this player, as it is almost always necessary to have a monitor to switch between Groups on DVD-A titles, and is always necessary for switching between stereo and MC on SA-CD titles. To switch between the two on SA-CD on the DV-8400 you have to go into the setup manual.

So, a lot of the "access" issues lie not with the format, but rather with the players.

Someone who's only exposure to SA-CD was the DV-8400 would be left to conclude that SA-CD requires a monitor to choose tracks as well.

Cheers,

 

[Rachael B]

John, the original Sony M/C SACD players all let you change from stereo to M/C without going into a menu. My 2900 also has the annoying, sneezy menuitis thang too. I think this is just bad design. You ought to be able to hit stop with players and be able to move between programs with either hi-rez format without it being a federal case or having to use a monitor and menu. Suck-y design IMO....

 

[Phil A]

John, it is not just the Marantz, it is one of many players based on the Pioneer platform. I'm not picking on DVD-A (relax), the Pioneer's are not a picnic for SACD as compared to the Sony's noted by Rachael above. A group button alone does not resolve the problem. If I hit the group button on my Samsung HD-1000, I still need to know which way to hit the cursor, similarly for the group (Goto) button on the Rotel RDV-1060 and then even with a screen I just have a group number (e.g. 1, 2). Now I ended up with a cheap B&W (5 inch) monitor and then upgraded to a $60 13 inch color TV to resolve the problem of not putting on the projector. Fortunately the Rotel gives a good read-out of what one is playing along with the sampling frequency. Going from group to group and hitting buttons w/o know which group one is one is a nuisance. One could have a 2-channel source selected and be getting the left and right input of a multi-channel mix and coming to the (erroneous) conclusion that the stereo DVD-A mix sucks.

Those that allow the use of the audio button to toggle between stereo and multi-channel are a bit better but also suffer from the same lack of clarity vs. hitting a stereo vs. multi-channel button on a Sony SACD player. I've seen people unfortunately leave with a very bad taste in their mouth for the whole format. When Linn brought the prototype Unidisk player to a local seminar a yr. ago, they played "Hotel California" and it was obvious to me they were playing the left and right channel of the multi-channel mix. I said something afterwards to them in private as about 40 high spending audiophiles walked out thinking DVD-A sucks and is not hi-rez compared to something like SACD. In my opinion this has hurt the format with initial acceptance by the audiophile community which seems to have cemented SACD as the niche format of choice. Now DVD-A is hurting and taking wild swings on how to revive itself. It may turn out good or it may turn out bad. Time will tell. To me the amt. of quality software is more important than whether I can play a CD layer in a car as I personally make CD-Rs for use in the car.

This misconception that the DVD-A interface is as easy as the selecting stereo vs. multi-channel on a Sony SACD player is just not facing the facts, any more than the silly post on Audio Asylum where the die hard proponents of each make silly statements making the other format sound like it is of low-rez MP3 quality vs. the other. That is not facing facts either. I buy software that I like and don't control what gets released on what. I will go to Best Buy this weekend with my 10% coupon which is equally user friendly to CD, DVD-A or SACD w/o bias.

 

[Will_B]

Then the DVDA folks should start advertising that their product has the same features as the DVD side of the dualdisc, and quick.