THE WONDER YEARS (Consolidated Thread; No New Ones, Please!) (1 Viewer)

[Joseph DeMartino]

The report estimates that consumer spending on TV DVDs will grow from $2.3 billion in 2004 to $3.9 billion in 2008.

That's nice. So what? That's total consumer spending on DVD, not studio profits. Before the studio sees dime one the retailer and distributor take their cut. Then there's returns. Finally when all that dust settles the studio sees how much it took in and then deducts how much it cost to produce and master the DVDs, replicate, package and ship them to the distributor, and advertise the things so that somebody would buy them. Finally they have to deduct contractual royalties to other parties (this would include the music rights holders) and whatever's left over goes into the studio's coffers. Which, I can assure you, is nothing remotely like $3.9 billion for all the studios combined. So throwing around numbers like that, utterly without context, is less than useless in a disucssion like this.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Gord Lacey]

That's nice. So what? That's total consumer spending on DVD, not studio profits. Before the studio sees dime one the retailer and distributor take their cut. Then there's returns. Finally when all that dust settles the studio sees how much it took in and then deducts how much it cost to produce and master the DVDs, replicate, package and ship them to the distributor, and advertise the things so that somebody would buy them. Finally they have to deduct contractual royalties to other parties (this would include the music rights holders) and whatever's left over goes into the studio's coffers. Which, I can assure you, is nothing remotely like $3.9 billion for all the studios combined. So throwing around numbers like that, utterly without context, is less than useless in a disucssion like this.

Kinda like how Amazon.com was selling millions or dollars of merchandise every quarter, but still losing money.

Gord

 

[Mark Talmadge]

Apparently, everyone here is so intent on blaming those music rights holders and not looking at the overall issue. While I understand everyone's concern both side of the issue are to blame, not just those parties who hodl the rights to the music.

The music rights holders are to blame for not negotiating the rights for reasonable liscensing fees and the studios are to blame for not negotiating for those rights and paying the rights holders or the artists a fair an equitable price.

With TV DVD profits goiing higher and higher the studios need to start addressing this and paying for certain pieces of music. WKRP is a prime example of this. All throughout the series they played hot songs and from hot artists during the seventies and eighties and this was the mistake they made.The show is a music liscensing hell to get on DVD because there are so many parties involved with that show. The studios don't want to relinquish their profits or cut into their profits by paying what the studios want for the cost of that music, despite the fact if the artists had already been paid for it duiring its initial broadcast run. Since the DVD market exploded with TV DVD sets, these studios are so glombed into this genre they they expect that those songs are theirs and they should be able to release the unedited versions with the songs intact for next to nothing.

Apparently, everyone here thinks that these shows should be released without liscensing those songs for a new medium (DVD). Despite the arguments, and I would love to see this series released, the show is a nightmare for liscensed music rights holders. Each song has to be re-negotiated for the release for each episode and these studios are going to end up paying for the rights for that music or they won't release it ... period.

 

[Matt Harrison]

I see what you are saying but I still am pissed off why a decent agreement cant be made so both parties benefit. End of the day, its down to one party being more greedier than the other. Simple as....

 

[Craig S]

Apparently, everyone here thinks that these shows should be released without liscensing those songs for a new medium (DVD).

That's just ridiculous. I've never seen anyone on this board advocate that.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

First, I do agree that the rights-holders are probably asking too much, and they should agree to a reasonable amount, but with a lot of songs for a series, they should be dipping into the profits of other shows that have been released.

Although way off the mark, look at Star Trek. No music rights, and selling for $100 a season. I'd love to see the net profit margin they made off of those!

The same goes for movies with or without any music. Why don't the studios release the movies that might barely break even, using profits from other shows?

Glenn

 

[Gord Lacey]

Why don't the studios release the movies that might barely break even, using profits from other shows?

That's poor business. They evaluate every property on how much money they expect to make from it, not only right now, but in the future. If they can make more money in the future (by launching it with a theatrical movie) then they'll hold off. If they think they can make more money now, they'll release it now (My Big Fat Greek Life). Telling shareholders that you used the profits from one project to fund another wouldn't go over well. That's how companies get into trouble financially.

Gord

 

[Katherine_K]

As Gord pointed out, that's not a reasonable buisness practice.

Although way off the mark, look at Star Trek. No music rights, and selling for $100 a season. I'd love to see the net profit margin they made off of those!

And as I've said before, Star Trek is rarely a good example to compare to anything but something else within that francise. It is a special case.

 

[Mark Talmadge]

First, while studios make profits from these shows when they are release to DVD, it's only fair to those agencies who hold the rights to the music that appears in these shows that they either share in the profits or pay for the rights to use that music when it's released to DVD.

Addendum: Originally, when music is created for a television show that music is only negotiated for broadcasting rights.

Furthermore, most studios generally don't negotiate for the rights for eventual release to DVD because it's generally not known how successful a particular series will do during its original broadcast dates.

Side Notes: It hasn't been known until recently that some studios have begun negotiating for the rights of particular music created for a television show for its eventual release to DVD. A reasonable course of action by these studios.

While these studios do try to negotiate most often there is a minor point that is often holding them up and they are not neccessary due to the price on how much these television studios will pay. This most often have to do with a variety of things such as a share in the profits due to future sales of the DVD sets. Bear in mind that the prices that the rights holders have maye have to do with payments for a certain number of sets produced.

Secondary, there are two different sides on the music side of this issue. This most likely has to do with the payment that the artists for that song want added to the fact on how much the studio wants for its own particular fee.

Please be aware that I do sympathize with everyone here. I would greatly appreciate the fact if they would release "The Wonder Years" and WKRP" and many of those other shows and while I respect the rights of these studios to want to negotiate for a reasonable price for the liscensing of that music I also respect the rights of the creators of their music to be able to get paid for using their music.

On the other hand, with shows like WKRP, what everyone doesn't realize here, is that this show probably has a million different songs that they would need to negotiate for and this being released on DVD was probably something that never occured to the studios back in the 70's and 80's The only way a show like WKRP and The Wonder Years could get released is if they agreed to pay the rights holders a percentage of the profits from the DVD sales. All parties would benefit by such an agreement and it takes a lot of time to negotiate things like this from all parties.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Then for WKRP & WY, we may as well forget it. It just ain't gonna happen, period.

Glenn

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Although way off the mark, look at Star Trek. No music rights, and selling for $100 a season. I'd love to see the net profit margin they made off of those!

I'd like to introduce two phrases that are apparently wholly unfamiliar to some of those in this thread:

"Supply and demand"

"What the market will bear"

Some of you may want to look them up. Prices are data, a form of communication between buyer and seller. The only rational definition of the monetary value of any item is: "What someone else is willing to pay for it." If Trek fans weren't willing to pay $100 for those sets, Paramount would either have to cut the price or stop producing them. If people were willing to pay $200 for them, Paramount would be stupid to charge a dime less. Their costs have nothing to do with this except to the degree that if their costs were so high that they'd have to charge more than people would spend in order to break even, they (rationally) wouldn't produce the sets at all. That is exactly the decision that Fox has taken with regard to WKRP. Once they added in what the music rights holders wanted to all the other costs of producing and marketing the discs, they calculated what they'd have to charge per set to at least break even and concluded that it would be more than the public would collectively be wiling to pay. It isn't like the studios don't do polling and market research on this stuff.

Fox's numbers tell them that fans will buy "x" copies of the discs at price points "a", "b" and "c". If "c" is the highest price and the smallest number of sales, and the music rights would drive the cost up to the point where Fox would have to charge "c" or higher to make a profit, Fox isn't going to release the show.

These are just economic realities. They are morally neutral. It is absurd to talk about "evil" studios or "greedy" rights holders or to impute bad faith to either party. Everybody tries to get the best deal for him or herself, the numbers either work or do not. To bring some kinder higher ethics or morality into the discussion is to appeal to the kind of "cosmic justice" that is not the purview of law or government or business.

I think a case can be made that the studios bear all the cost and produce the product, so their economic parameters are more limited. The rights holders are being offered money for the use of something that already exists and they need only accept or reject the offer. I would suggest to the rights-holders that 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing, but people are not always rational in these matters. One thing everyone thinks of in negotiating today's deals is what effect they may have on tomorrow's. If I own a song and license if for a relatively low fee for a DVD set, does that hurt my ability to charge more for someone to use it next year in a feature film? Sure it "shouldn't" do so in the "cosmic justice" sense, and in fact the film producer's shouldn't even know how much the DVD producer paid for the song. But in the real world the movie producer is going to find out, because the industry is a hot-bed of gossip, and people are going to use such knoweldge to try to maximize their advantage.

If you want more information about how markets actually work, based on empirical observation of reality instead of airy theories about how things should work, go to the nearest public or university library and see if you can find a copy of Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Louis C]

I certainly don't fault anyone for using basic economics in decisions regarding release of this show. That doesn't mean we can't discuss whether the parties are making intelligent business decisions. Let me illustrate:

AFAIK, WY uses only a part of each song.

If the rights holders are expecting payment based on the whole song, then I have doubts that the studios are asking an unfair price for using the music.

An argument can be made that, if anything, the use of that snippet of song on the DVD will actually promote sales of the artist's CDs, since the DVD purchaser isn't getting the whole song, and is not buying the show just for the songs.

Because of this, put me in the camp of those who think the recording studios/artists are using "extortion-like" strategies to unfairly mine the TV studio's goldmine of TV-on-DVD.

 

[Mark Talmadge]

Actually, Louis, you have it wrong. Most studios or those agents who hold the rights to a song won't negotiate with a studio who wants only "part" of a song. They usually end up negotiating for the song "in general."

I've never heard of a studio for a series negotiating for part of a song.

 

[Eugene Esterly]

The case with WKRP is that WKRP has so many shows which appears during the season run which leads to a rights nightmare. WKRP has lots of music because during the old days of TV, the recording industry had a rule which stated that if you recorded your shows on videotape instead of film, you get a discount on the music & this is the reason why WKRP has so much music.

 

[Martin_C]

Fox Germany is planning to release The Wonder Years - Season One in early 2006, so that voting appearantly helped. I will keep you updated on all the details as they become available.

 

[Ben King]

Season one is also due for release in the UK on 13th March.

 

[Dane Marvin]

Wow, if we don't get it here then this may be the final push I need to finally get a region-free DVD player. This and Blake's 7 on DVD are the only two shows left that I MUST OWN!

 

[Matt Harrison]

YOU BEAUTY

Cheers mate, made my day.

 

[Ben King]

I can only presume that music rights must be less costly to clear here in the UK than in the States, hence the forthcoming release of The Wonder Years and the intact music on the Quantum Leap discs.

This also might be why we've had the complete series of Ally McBeal out on DVD over here, compared with only a "Best Of" release (?) in the U.S.

 

[Louis C]

Has anyone actually confirmed that all of the original music is intact? If the answer is "yes" then I too will be buying a region-free player.