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Blu-ray Review The Roots of Heaven Blu-ray Review (1 Viewer)

Joe Caps

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Sorry, Robert about going overboard. Your words- "We Finally hear the origianl stereo mix" more than implies the film was , hmmm, originally stereo whichis just not true. When Rhino did the complete soundtrcacks of Frank Sinatra in a huge cd box set, the producer of the set did a search for all original sinatra tracks and foundnothing but mono for Joey. If this turns out to be true stereo, I will eat my words.
 

Cees Alons

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OK, I think this situation has been solved pretty well by everyone involved, the way mature people do.


But let me stress once more that we do not allow personal attacks to go un-corrected. That's even not dependent on the (perceived) truth of the opinion under attack.

As posters in a discussion on the forum we're asked to stay civil, period.


Calling a fellow member a liar is not considered civil.



Cees
 

Jon Lidolt

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I asked the DVD Savant about the missing surround information on both The Robe and The Egyptian. He did some sleuthing and came up with the answer. Apparently the 3 tracks containing the left, centre and right hand screen audio were stored on one 35mm magnetic film, whereas the surround information was recorded onto a separate strip of 35mm magnetic material. Unfortunately, the master tapes containing the surround information have either been lost, mis-labeled or tossed out. It's unfortunate that we can no longer experience the original 4-track audio that thrilled those first CinemaScope audiences in the early 50's.
 

Joe Caps

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Some studios, particularly MGM had the surrounds on separate reels. fox four tracks are all together on the same reel. the surrounds are certainly NOT missing on either the Robe or the Egyptian. While in Los Angeles, I saw both films projected in big theaters and the surrounds I heard then are the same as surrounds on the disc. What is confusing is Fox suurounds for most scope movies were just informatioin from the front channels that were bumped on to the surrounds, turned on and off by the surround tones. One Fox sound engineer, Doug Williams, told me that Fox did not do true separate surrounds until South Pacific.
 

Jon Lidolt

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I had a few frames of film from a 1954 print of The Robe that I got off the projection room floor when I ran a rep cinema. This print had 4 separate magnetic stripes. Three were the left, centre and right hand sounds that came from the behind the screen, the fourth was turned on whenever there was music or other sounds to be played through the surround speakers. Because this sound stripe was very narrow it was also very hissy. To keep it from ruining the rest of the movie, there was an inaudible high frequency control signal that would turn on the surround audio only when there was a sound effect. This audio would hide the annoying hiss. Skeptical? Simply check out an old American Cinematographers manual.
 

TheVid

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The PAL JOEY and PICNIC blu-ray soundtracks are most likely the first-time 5.1 mixes that have already been released on DVD in THE KIM NOVAK COLLECTION from Sony. I heard the PAL JOEY 5.1 mix on the dvd and it is definitely processed, with only relative separation, as opposed to true multi-channel sound. The PICNIC dvd in this set, on the other hand, is restored, with a discrete mix that improves on the 2-track matrix stereo from former dvd releases. Still, no matter how you cut it, Twilight Time's PAL JOEY and PICNIC look like they are going to be first-rate presentations on blu-ray. With regard to CinemaScope 4-track stereo, it does appear that surrounds were only employed for specific sequences and that directional dialogue and high-fidelity stereo music in the front channels was the primary goal. There is surround information in both THE ROBE and THE EGYPTIAN, albeit mostly confined to storm rumblings. I think if theaters had fancier Perspecta processors in their auditoriums, they were able to give their CinemaScope surround speakers more separation and ambience.
 

Joe Caps

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Perespta was not used in conjuntion with four track mag prints. But Fox surrounds were just dupew of front channel info. Example. go to 01:23:33 sinuhe returns to Egypt and is taken to the outdoor temple of aton The chorus starts to sing and it is imediately bumped on to the surrounds. As sson as Vicftor Mature speaks, off go the surrounds. It is on and off during the entire scene, depending on where there is dialogue - just as it was in theaters.
 

john a hunter

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Jon Lidolt said:
I asked the DVD Savant about the missing surround information on both The Robe and The Egyptian. He did some sleuthing and came up with the answer. Apparently the 3 tracks containing the left, centre and right hand screen audio were stored on one 35mm magnetic film, whereas the surround information was recorded onto a separate strip of 35mm magnetic material. Unfortunately, the master tapes containing the surround information have either been lost, mis-labeled or tossed out. It's unfortunate that we can no longer experience the original 4-track audio that thrilled those first CinemaScope audiences in the early 50's.
Thanks for all the info guys.Jon's info sounds correct and explains the relative silence in the suround/effects track on many BD's of this vintage. I did hear some 4 tracks while in the U.K many years ago and I recall a good friend who saw many more told me telling me that if you sat near the sides or back , the hiss from the 4th track always gave away when it was about to be used. I saw "The Robe " in 4 track in the mid 70's. The surround was used quite extensively from memory as you would expect from the first film in a process which extolled in its advertising the " wonder of 4 track directional stereophonic sound".There were more than the few pathetic rumbles on the 4th track in the Calvary sequence which is all we get on the BD.There were loud distint thunder crashes. And when the carriage drives over the camera towards the end, you felt it going over you. This shot was repeated again in "The Egyptian", which a reviewer at the time commented upon. Again the BD is sadly lacking here. So we are left with a situation where BD's freely state they are 4 track but what they produce is really a travesty of the original.
 

TheVid

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'Tis true! The chariot and wagon sequences on THE EGYPTIAN and THE ROBE blu-ray do utilize the surround channel most effectively; and I just played the Aton sequence Joe described from THE EGYPTIAN and it is as he said. I have side dipoles and a single horn transducer in the rear and the effect was sweet! I can't wait to get JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH on blu-ray! I hope Twilight Time has that on their list!
 

Jon Lidolt

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TheVid said:
'Tis true! The chariot and wagon sequences on THE EGYPTIAN and THE ROBE blu-ray do utilize the surround channel most effectively; and I just played the Aton sequence Joe described from THE EGYPTIAN and it is as he said. I have side dipoles and a single horn transducer in the rear and the effect was sweet! I can't wait to get JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH on blu-ray! I hope Twilight Time has that on their list!
You may have a point, but what you're hearing is a new mix. It's not the surround sound that audiences experienced when these movies opened in the first run theatres. It's interesting to note that second run and neighborhood houses refused to go along with magnetic multi-channel sound and Fox was forced to provide mono optical track prints for these theatres.
 

ahollis

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Well Matt, you did to me again. Your review caused me to get on the SAE web site and order THE ROOTS OF HEAVEN and it has been shipped. You have never steered me in the wrong directions before and I trust this will be clear sailing too. Looking forward to watching the film. Thanks.
 

Richard Gallagher

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Originally Posted by TheVid

The PAL JOEY and PICNIC blu-ray soundtracks are most likely the first-time 5.1 mixes that have already been released on DVD in THE KIM NOVAK COLLECTION from Sony. I heard the PAL JOEY 5.1 mix on the dvd and it is definitely processed, with only relative separation, as opposed to true multi-channel sound. The PICNIC dvd in this set, on the other hand, is restored, with a discrete mix that improves on the 2-track matrix stereo from former dvd releases. Still, no matter how you cut it, Twilight Time's PAL JOEY and PICNIC look like they are going to be first-rate presentations on blu-ray.
With regard to CinemaScope 4-track stereo, it does appear that surrounds were only employed for specific sequences and that directional dialogue and high-fidelity stereo music in the front channels was the primary goal. There is surround information in both THE ROBE and THE EGYPTIAN, albeit mostly confined to storm rumblings. I think if theaters had fancier Perspecta processors in their auditoriums, they were able to give their CinemaScope surround speakers more separation and ambience.

The screener of PICNIC arrived in today's mail. I haven't had a chance to preview it yet, but the packaging list the audio as 5.1 DTS HD-MA.


I should have the review up by Saturday night.
 

ShowsOn

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Jon Lidolt said:
You may have a point, but what you're hearing is a new mix. It's not the surround sound that audiences experienced when these movies opened in the first run theatres. It's interesting to note that second run and neighborhood houses refused to go along with magnetic multi-channel sound and Fox was forced to provide mono optical track prints for these theatres.
Fox received many complaints in early 1954 that Fox films weren't utilising the surround (or as it was called "Auditorium Effects") track enough. Daryl Zanuck sent memos to the sound department demanding that they make greater use of the A.E. track, but since so many of the tracks are lost it is hard to know if any major change was made.
 

Joe Caps

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Other studios did seem to be more aggresive with surrounds than Fox. but one person mentions its hard to know what was on the actual sorounds with so many of them being lost. What makes him think they were lost. Fox has almost all of theirs as does MGM and Warners.
 

Joe Caps

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Yes, but of course the original audio is just 4.0 for this film. When you bump to 5.1, something has to be changed to get there.
 

ahollis

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Originally Posted by Joe Caps

Other studios did seem to be more aggresive with surrounds than Fox.
but one person mentions its hard to know what was on the actual sorounds with so many of them being lost. What makes him think they were lost.
Fox has almost all of theirs as does MGM and Warners.

Too bad people can't go back and read or re-read some of those great articles in Perfect Vision that you were involved in on the hunt for the stereo tracks to films. Because of those in depth writings a lot of laserdiscs would have been released in Mono instead of stereo as they ended up. Those discussions and the ones in the letters to the editor were always favorite readings of mine. From what I remember, Columbia was the main company that had no idea what they had or did not have at the time. I am sure Mr. Crisp has that well in hand now.
 

Charles Smith

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What a great idea! Thank you for the reminder. I have the Perfect Visions and will never part with them (likewise, the Absolute Sounds). Re-reading now should be more rewarding than ever.


Confession: I didn't even know about The Roots of Heaven till Twilight Time announced it, and I even missed this review at first. It's on its way.
 

john a hunter

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Joe Caps said:
Other studios did seem to be more aggresive with surrounds than Fox. but one person mentions its hard to know what was on the actual sorounds with so many of them being lost. What makes him think they were lost. Fox has almost all of theirs as does MGM and Warners.
Judging from what we hear( or rather not hear!) they are generally lost or if Warner's has them- badly transferred. Zanuck berated the Fox sound department for not using the "surround"( called "AP"in the UK for Audience Participation) more. There is one of his memos where he advised them to see " Battle Cry" which had guns firing over the audience from the APs. Where is it on the Warners dvd? Nowhere. And while on Warners, I have seen more 70mm prints of " 2001 " from and including its Cinerama showings than I can remember. In every one "a ladies cashmere sweater has been found" in on the 6th surround track( and on the left when split dolby surround prints are used). Where is it on the dvd and BD? Why in the centre of course. Clearly not much attention or indeed any, is given to the use of correct rear channels when these vintage films are transferred. We should demand better.
 

William Miller

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To my eyes and ears, the opening Fox logo and music do not look or sound like they are from 1958. It sounds like a later recording of the Fox fanfare and CinemaScope extension music. Is it possible they tacked on something different? When the credits begin, the music sounds correct.
 

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