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Craig Chase

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Sean, when I look north, it is only 15 miles to get to the Canadian side of Lake Erie... We know long winters, for sure.

As cold as Canada gets, I still am enjoying doing business there... my only problem is this: You will let me BUY a Cuban cigar there, just not SMOKE it in any lounge... What's up with THAT ? ...;)
 

Sean D

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Craig,
I'm not sure about the cigars but you can definitely smoke cigarettes in most bars and restaurants in Quebec (for now).....I'll investigate the cigar issue. :)
 

Craig Chase

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I thought you were Ontario, Sean.. they passed the same stupid smoking ban in Ontario that New York did, and never thought about the effect on bars/restaurants....

We only expanded to Ontario, no insurer we work with likes Quebec... not sure why, but they don't ... bummer.
 

Craig Chase

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Well then, I guess we need to get some clients in Ottawa... We already do have some in Watertown, NY - according to the mileage calculator, that is only 100 miles...
 

David Bikeman

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"I thought you were Ontario, Sean.. they passed the same stupid smoking ban in Ontario that New York did, and never thought about the effect on bars/restaurants...."

New York thought about the ban quite a bit. A restaurant can get an exemtion if they can show hardship. Few can. Business is up in general.

David
 

Craig Chase

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David - I suppose you are right. Afterall, I travel to every metro area in New York on business, and every upper class lounge I have frequented for years has suffered from this ban. We should REALLY help out the owners, and ban any food with fat in it, too. THEN business would be GREAT...
 

David Bikeman

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Like most analogies, yours is useless. We'd die without fat. Is your point that we will die without smoking? Most New Yorkers feel that a smoking section in a restaurant is like a peeing section in a swimming pool. The idea appeals to some but not to most. We had an excellent debate here before the ban became law. It's been a very popular law. Not too many of those these day.
I'm sure the folks in Ontario used a similar process.

David
 

Craig Chase

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Useless... That is nice. I was counting on a response like this.

The New York Night Life Association has these statistics:

1. 34 % of New York City bars, Hotels and Nightclubs have reduced staff by an average of 16% since the ban took effect.

2. 76% of bars and nightclubs have reported a decrease of an average of 30% in their businesses or more since the ban took effect.

Peeing in a swimming pool ? Classy.

Ontario also had the sense to put into effect a $100 license to allow for smoking in establishments with liquor licenses. To the gent who sent me the PM on that, thanks.

Mr. Bikeman, I was having a fun conversation with Sean about Ontario when you felt compelled to "butt" in (that was a joke, by the way), and if you hate smoking, that is fine.

My problem with the anti-freedom laws is this: Noone EVER forced anyone to go into a lounge which allowed for smoking. People over 21 years old SHOULD be ALLOWED to decide for him or her self whether or not to smoke, and whether or not to allow smoking in a PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESS.

Banning smoking was a "mob rules" anti-freedom issue that HAS hurt a lot of businesses.

And just wait until some other "do-gooder" gets a group to decide that home theater is also a bad thing... All that hearing loss.
 

MikeLi

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Folks ought to be able to kill their lungs where ever they please except anywhere close to my steak dinner. Truthfully as an ex smoker, I still miss it every day except when I come home at night and don't smell it on my clothes and such. I think they should do like the ADA bill and make a business provide a special place for smokers and the rest for non smokers as we are way in the majority now. Like maybe an outdoor section to go grab a smoke and then come back to your table. Or better yet have places that are smoking only and have others that are non smoking only. Let the owners choose. Of course bars and those other small old places want the smokers as most smokers drink as well and love those places. But its not the other way around for the most part. Drinkers don't necessarily smoke. THey did the same study here after passing the no smoking law in restruants and some night clubs here in Oregon. Actually business for most went up. Those of us that used to smoke (which there are a bunch) wont go to a place, expensive or not that would allow someone to sit next to you and smoke. The minute you leave and get in your car you smell like and ashtray.
 

Craig Chase

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Mike, For the record, I smoke about one cigar per week. This is not about what people do or do not "necessarily" do. It is about freedom.

Let us say, for example, a law was passed in a Tobacco state (we will use North Carolina) that REQUIRED a bar to have a smoking area. I would oppose THAT as well.

You don't like smoke next to your steak ? That is YOUR choice, and NONE of my business. You should have the right to choose a steakhouse that is smoke-free.

I should have the right to choose a seafood house (I don't eat steak, red meat will kill you) which DOES allow smoking.

And if a restaurant that allows smoking goes out of business because that policy offended people, that is called the FREE ENTERPRISE system.
 

David Bikeman

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When I hit submit, my post got eaten.
We're way off topic so I'll say one more thing on the issue and let Craig have the last word.
Society imposes restrictions for the common good. Here in New York we covered all of Craig's platitutes early on in the debate. We decided it was in the best interest of society to ban smoking in public areas. It's a popular law.
Because it took so long to enact, people were educated along the way. The numbers that supported the ban grew thoughtout the process. That's the way a society should work.

David
 

MikeLi

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Wait one second Craig... I love a Cigar (has to be a good one though) once in awhile but I never would think of lighting it up in a nice restraunt. We have places here where you go after dinner to the cigar room and can smoke your cigar and have a drink. That way my habit if you want to call it that doesnt bother others and everyone else that enjoys having a cigar after they eat has a place to go. By the way there is no study that red meat kills you any faster than fish that has been eating all our poluted crap in the water for years. Of course thats better than eating food mixed with your own self basicly that started the mad cow thing..... I guess you can't win on that one. Having a steak and a cigar at my favorite steak place once every other week or more...oh well if it kills me I will die happy and also knowing I haven't bothered others.

And David somtimes we pass laws because the folks on one side have alot of money to spend to get the issue to a vote when it really should not. But thats the way we do it here in Oregon. I don't know of a better way but right now we have a state insurance company that is semi state run, their main competitor has spent over a million in advertising telling people false things and people that have never had to use the system or own a small business get it. In our case privitizing this will only raise our business rates and this other company wants the state run agency that has lower premiums (because they do not have to pay tax on their earnings it all goes into an injury pool to pay for injured workers.) My small business of 5 currently costs between $600-$800 a year depending on payroll, going to this private company (they say they can be cheaper) on who? With them my insurance rates hit near $1000 a year with no promise of a fair increase on any further years without an accident. SOrry to get off track here. Its always the guys with the money that win these wacky things. I am all for government staying out of our lives but, if there is a system like our insurance state run company that can save me money and they have a good war chest( just cant use it to fight back the private companies) I'll choose that one.
 

Craig Chase

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Mike, In the New York law, You cannot smoke in ANY public building. Period. There are no designated smoking areas. It is BANNED.

And the red meat comment was a bit of a joke, but they WILL be coming after your steak next..
 

CurtisSC

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We have had the no smoking law in California for a while, and I am one that appreciates it. Secondhand smoke is bad for you.

Here at the beach bars, the smokers go out on the patios to get their fix. What amazes me most is their need to smoke.

Some counties are now banning smoking on the beach. I never thought the beach and smoking mixed well....I know a couple of people that have gotten the foot stepping on a hot cigarette butt.
 

frank manrique

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quote:

"My problem with the anti-freedom laws is this: Noone EVER forced anyone to go into a lounge which allowed for smoking. People over 21 years old SHOULD be ALLOWED to decide for him or her self whether or not to smoke, and whether or not to allow smoking in a PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESS.

Banning smoking was a "mob rules" anti-freedom issue that HAS hurt a lot of businesses.

And just wait until some other "do-gooder" gets a group to decide that home theater is also a bad thing... All that hearing loss.

And the red meat comment was a bit of a joke, but they WILL be coming after your steak next.."
____________________________________________

Oh, so true!...

I smoked cigarrettes for nearly 40 years but had to stop this last February for health reasons (was part of the problem but was my own doing at any rate, thus I ain't blaming no one...or tobacco companies either; opting to smoke was and is my on expression of FREEDOM OF CHOICE! Either way, we have own up to our own responsabilties and not impose our will on others).
And I'll be damned if am going to start preaching the anti-smoke propaganda to any one else who still smoke! :angry:

Great posts, Craig!... :emoji_thumbsup:

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
 

frank manrique

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quote:
________________________________________________

We have had the no smoking law in California for a while, and I am one that appreciates it. Secondhand smoke is bad for you.

Here at the beach bars, the smokers go out on the patios to get their fix. What amazes me most is their need to smoke.

Some counties are now banning smoking on the beach. I never thought the beach and smoking mixed well....I know a couple of people that have gotten the foot stepping on a hot cigarette butt.
_________________________________________________

Yea...and this is just one typical example of the myriad of truly negative aspects that often plague the People's Socialist Replublic of California!... :rolleyes

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
 

Craig Chase

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First, the concept of second hand smoke being "bad for you" is rather silly. In an Average room with average ventilation, air circulates every 15 minutes.

If you were in a typical crowded bar, and EVERY OTHER patron smoked, and each smoker had 4 cigarettes per hour, the typical person who did NOT smoke would get the equivalant of 0.2 cigarettes in a 6 hour stint in the room. Based on data comparing a person who is a non smoker in this bar spending 6 hours per night, EVERY night, For 40 years... This person would have a reduction in lifespan, by average, of two weeks.

That person also has the right to leave.

Frank, I feel terrible for hi-jacking your thread, and will knock it off anytime you say...

But.... The average 3 pack a day smoker knocks 13 years off his/her life span.

An open question, If a behavior knocks 13 years off a lifespan, should that behavior be outlawed ?
 

CurtisSC

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That isn't the issue. I don't care if people choose to smoke or not. But knowing that the secondhand smoke is bad, is it curteous to do it around others? I say give the smokers a place to smoke where it will not affect others.

How do you feel about disturbing the peace laws?
 

Craig Chase

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Curtis, This discussion was not about being courteous, nor was it about designating a smoker's area. It is about the facist banning on smoking in EVERY PUBLIC ACCESS BUILDING in New York. By the way, the example I used assumed NO special air ventilation systems, it was due to the volume of air in the room, the natural replenishing of air that occurs, and simple math.

A typical bar has about 200-1000 cubic feet per patron. Without the ventilation system, the cigareete smoke dissipates in 15 minutes. The entire cigarette, as smoked, puts about 1 cubic foot of "pure" smoke into the air, this smoke has had a large portion of carcinogens already removed. It is in the lungs of the person smoking.

SO ... Using the 200 cubic feet area, each cigarette means you will inhale .005 cigarette every 15 minutes. In 6 hours, with the smoker having 4 cigarettes per hour 24 x.005 = 0.12 cigarettes.

Where do you find this ? The typical person breathes 1/2 a quart per inhale. It requires 30 quarts to make one cubic foot. That means 60 inhales per cigarette to fill one cubic foot with smoke for the example I used. Ask any smoker, and they will tell you they don't get SIXTY DRAGS (love that word) from one cigarette.

If you think this is a health issue, congratulations, you just bought into propaganda that will allow others to take away your rights.

Adult Beverages, Red Meat, Cars... they are ALL targets of anti-freedom.

The natural filtration your body has can easily absorb this in the course of 6 hours.

And the air in Southern California has a higher polution index than a cigar lounge does here. Maybe Los Angeles should be outlawed... ;)


Since I smoke that whole cigar per week, these laws really do not affect me much. What has happened with smokers is a total sham.

1. First, we put warning labels on their cigarettes, to let them know that we cared about their health, and we told them we were not going to take their cigarettes away.

2. Second, We started putting them into smoking only sections.

3. Then we mandated that all public access (note, NOT public owned) buildings have sealed off smoking areas.

4. Now we have told them they cannot smoke ANYWHERE that is a public access building.

As far as being courteous around others, We do that here in flyover country. We have manners about such things.

As far as how I feel about disturbing the peace laws, I have never done anything that required the police to show up.

And factually speaking, the average 3 pack per day over 40 year smoker loses as much lifespan as the average gay/bi-sexual man. Kinda ironic, we finally get to the point where THAT is no longer a position of Social pariah, but the smoker is.
 

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