The NHL 2004-2005 Season (LOCKOUT! now over) (1 Viewer)

[Mark Paquette]

I've had similar thoughts many times while watching hockey. I can't realistically afford to go to many NHL games in Detroit. So I've been slowly losing interest in the NHL over the last couple of years. The last 2 winters I've been watching my hockey at Yost in Ann Arbor. Sure, college hockey isn't the NHL, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper and I get to see it in person. I really hope this isn't the end of the NHL, and I really hope something good for the fans comes out of this whole lockout mess. :frowning:

 

[Angelo.M]

Related topic: during the 2002-03 season, 19 of the 30 clubs operated at a loss, which averaged $18 million US (source, MSNBC). The 2003-04 season figures, as far as I can find, are being held back because of the current mess.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Mark, I've been doing something similar, except in my case it's been the Plymouth Whalers, who play in the OHL junior league (similar in talent level to college hockey). The arena is 5 minutes from our house, tickets are less than $10, every seat has a great view, and the hockey is very entertaining. The team sells out most games -- the arena seats about 4,000.

There are currently no talks scheduled between the owners and players union. There is no better indication that this is going to be a long lockout -- if the sides really wanted to save the season, they would be talking to each other instead of blasting each other in news conferences.

 

[Lew Crippen]

While you can count me in on the side of the NHL needing some kind of cost (salary) control, I am very skeptical of claims like that. If and only if the figures came from an independent audit, would I believe the owners claims of problems of that magnitude. This (an outside audit) is what happens in the NFL to set the cap each year.

From a logic perspective I can’t help but wonder how the owner’s war chest was built up over the last couple of years it everyone was losing money.

Distrust of the owner's claims is one of the things that make the players think that they should not settle.

 

[Mark Paquette]

Scott, someone I work with has one of the Whaler players living at their house. It sounds similar to an exchange student type thing. Anyway, she offered to get me some tickets and after hearing your desciprtion I think I will check them out this season. Sounds like a good time!

 

[Chris Bardon]

Well, when you talk about the "little guy" making only 400,000-500,000 per year, you have a really hard time getting my sympathy. I don't deny that these guys work hard, but so do a lot of other people who don't make even close to that much money.

Maybe all the players' salaries should be tied to team and league revenues (as percentage points).

 

[Ron Pinsonneault]

This is great news for hockey fans, not for NHL fans, but for hockey fans in general! I haven't been to a Bruins game for several years now and don't miss it at all. I can go to the Verizon Wireless arena here in Manchester and for less than $10.00 a ticket watch NHL caliber hockey. And if you don't think the AHL is as good as or better than the NHL then you have never been to a Monarch's game. I can also see UNH men's or women's hockey down the road in Durham.

Hopefully, there will be no quick resolution, let both sides pound their chests and ride on their high horses and when they finally come to terms, find out that they were not missed by the knowledgable hockey fan.

WAY TO GO NHL!!!

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Yes, this and professional players being allowed in the Olympics or World tournaments. Sure, the Worlds was fun, but could have been just as exciting with fresh faces making their mark on the sport.

How about determining salaries based on performance of the team as a whole? That wouldn't go over well with the players, but it would sure up the ante during the regular season.

I agree that Bettman needs to go. He has driven this sport into the ground. Cable has been cancelled.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Both the NFL and NBA base their salary caps on a percentage of total league revenue, so the concept certainly can work.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> Any city where an ice cube cannot stay frozen outside in January shouldn't have a team.

I hate to break the news to you, but they play the game indoors now.

I guess this lockout means the Stanley Cup will spend another year where it belongs, in Tampa. The tan is coming along nicely.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

The XFL tried this, the winning teams players got something like $10,000 per game and the losing team got something like $5,000 per game.

I remember when I could call MLB, the NFL, the NBA and the NHL the big 4 professional sports without hesitation. Now, I consider it the big 3 and at the rate the NBA is going its almost the big 2.5 just because the product is so unwatchable most nights.

I'd say that Hockey falls behind baseball, college/pro football, men's college/pro basketball, Nascar gets better TV ratings but then again so does professional wrestling...and I don't know that hockey gets as much interest in the United States anymore as the PGA tour does.

Hockey's a great sport but the NHL is not a well run league.

 

[Jason Seaver]

Why, precisely, should an athlete be loyal to his team? Leagues are cartels that limit where a given player can sign via a draft, and that team is free to keep him in the IHL or on the bench regardless of what it may do for that player's career

I mean, if I'd just graduated college with my Computer Science degree in hand and was told that I'd been drafted by EMC, couldn't sign with another company for five years, and, by the way, they already had a bunch of SQL guys so there's a good chance I'd be stuck in low-level positions until someone higher up gets carpal tunnel, I don't know how loyal I'd be when I became a free agent, either.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Chris I see what you're trying to say, but the NHL has a big problem.

When you've got people openly wondering why certain cities even have hockey teams in the first place that is not a good sign.

This doesn't happen in the NFL, people don't sit around wondering why a city like Tampa has a football team.

To the casual observer, they wonder what hockey teams are doing in cities like Tampa, Phoenix, and San Jose because to the casual observer, hockey = cold weather, those cities do not.

This is part of the problem, because the hardcore fans are going to watch regardless of what cities have teams, but a casual observer sees a hockey team in Anaheim and thinks its some kind of joke.

Hockey is a cold weather sport, even though as you put it they play it in doors now. That's why cities like Detroit and up in to Canada are considered good hockey towns because they have the type of weather that might lend itself to outdoor hockey.

Someone, I think it was Scott said that hockey is a regional sport that tries to pass itself off as national.

I don't know this, because I don't live in Florida but how many schools down there have Hockey at the high school level? High School hockey just hit in South Dakota in the past few years, but it really hit big and gets bigger every year with more schools finding resources to make it happen even though most schools have tight budgets as it is. A lot of it came about because of parent groups, and even though they're under the high school athletics and activities association, the teams are barely connected to the schools themselves. This is true for both boys and girls hockey.

So I am curious as to how big hockey is on the lower levels in some of these warmer climated states, because that more than whether or not a NHL team is in your city is a better indicator of how the sport is doing and if it is taking hold.

 

[Jason Seaver]

Although I imagine there are occasional questions of why a city like Los Angeles doesn't.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I don’t have knowledge of the entire country, but the answer for Dallas is ‘none’. Youth hockey is confied to people with parents who have the money and interest to subsidize their kid’s hockey. There are a few rinks for hockey, but of course ice time for games and practice is not cheap. There are some public rinks (such as in shopping malls) where ice time can be rented in the early morning hours. Otherwise nothing.

I’m glad to learn that prep hockey has hit South Dakota. It used to be pretty much confined to Massachusetts, Minnesota and Michigan. Even college hockey has not expanded much past a few colleges in a few states.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Not really, most of the questions are why would they bother and try to put a team back in Los Angeles? Seriously that's the attitude among most football fans, they've seen this fail badly and yet the NFL keeps trying and most don't understand why.

The NBA has a unique type of cap, in that the team for which you currently play can offer you more money and longer contracts than the other teams in the league. That's why in the NBA, you have a lot of sign and trades. Where a player's current team signs him to a max contract then trades him to another team for players/draft picks, what have you.

There is no provision like this in the NFL which is why a team like San Francisco cut Jerry Rice. It wasn't necessarily because they thought he couldn't play anymore, but because it was not financially beneficial to keep him because of his cap number.

Each cap is different, the NFL has what they call a hard cap, but there are ways to get around it. Teams typically sign players to contracts heavily loaded at the back end with money that the team has no intention of paying, the player is aware of this fact, and knows that he will either have to restructure the deal down the line, or be ready to get his release.

If owners want to keep loyalty as part of their sport, then they might want to go the NBA root in terms of the cap.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Paul, I know you are trying to make a point, just as was Jason. But his analogy is much closer. In practical terms, a new college grad won’t be hired by any European company in IT—and even if they would, they would be prevented from doing so by the works councils.

If you are really talking IT, you won’t get a job.

If you are really talking hockey, the pay won’t be the same—or even close.

The ‘Larry Bird’ exception applies to only one player per team. A fairly limited loyalty function.

 

[Jason Seaver]

Which are controlled by cartels of their own. The point being, why should players be particularly loyal to a given team when the opportunity to play for a competing team was denied to them?

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

I'm not as aware of what is happening now than I was when I was actually in high school, but I do remember that for awhile getting in to the state tournament was an automatic because there was only 8 teams. I know there are more places in South Dakota with teams now than there were then, and a lot of it did come about because of parental involvement, and hockey club fund raisers.

Its weird because while generally they're not funded by the school, they are supported by the school with pep rallies and different things of that nature. My hometown team for regular high school sports is the Huron Tigers, and the Hockey team is the Huron AllStars, and they've traveled to tournaments all over Minnesota, and even took a trip in to Canada for a tournament one year IIRC.

 

[Brian Perry]

Which is what the Cubs have always been accused of, as they are owned by the Tribune (which also owns WGN). The Cubs have never allocated the proper amount of TV revenue to the baseball team -- it was (and still is) a shell game.

Bill Wirtz is able to do similar things with the Blackhawks. He (along with Jerry Reinsdorf) owns the United Center, as well as the Bismark catering company. Who knows how much money is slushed around to make it look like the Blackhawks lose a ton of money? (Though in fairness, it is also evident that their attendance--unlike that of the Cubs--has dwindled to almost nothing.)

It's funny how similar baseball and hockey are:

* Most revenue derived locally
* Poor national TV deals
* No salary cap
* No "free" minor league system like the NFL/NBA, where stars come prepackaged right out of college

I'd say it's no coincidence there are also similar financial problems and competitive issues.