The Muppets Christmas Carol 20th Anniversary Blu-ray available for preorder on Amazon (1 Viewer)

[cafink]

It depends how you define cut. The scene in question was not used in the theatrical release. It should be on the disc as a deleted scene.

How many ways are there to define "cut"? Disney removed the scene against the wishes of the director, after he had already completed the film. If that doesn't qualify as a "cut," then what does?
I agree that there's value in including the theatrical version of a movie, but the director's original version should be available, too. Prior to the 2005 DVD release, *only* the director's cut had ever been available on video in the U.S.; relegating the excised song to the deleted scenes section would not be satisfactory solution (and Disney apparently couldn't be bothered to do even that).

 

[BJQ1972]

Well, no. Theatrical release does not mean definitive version. To understand why, you can go back and read this thread from the beginning. Or google the film, or read about it on Wikipedia, or read the most recent reviews on Amazon. It is all over the net about this film and the hastily cut song.

I am fully aware of the reasons that this scene was removed - the fact remains that Disney decided to remove the song prior to release, reinstated it for some home video releases, and have now decided against its inclusion in future releases.
Maybe I just haven't got the passion about this that some people have. I first saw the movie about three years ago - the HDTV version broadcast in the UK, and it doesn't have the scene in question. I have seen it, and it is a shame it was removed, but unfortunately it doesn't fit with Disney's view of how the film should be.

 

[NY2LA]

I am fully aware of the reasons that this scene was removed - the fact remains that Disney decided to remove the song prior to release, reinstated it for some home video releases, and have now decided against its inclusion in future releases.
Maybe I just haven't got the passion about this that some people have. I first saw the movie about three years ago - the HDTV version broadcast in the UK, and it doesn't have the scene in question. I have seen it, and it is a shame it was removed, but unfortunately it doesn't fit with Disney's view of how the film should be.

Here we go again. Disney did not make the film. Brian Henson did. Before Disney bought the Muppets. "Disney's View" is unreliable and quite fallible. It doesn't mean they are right. We are not talking about Walt here. We are talking about the kind of non-creative revolving door executive folks who greenlit Mars Needs Moms and that other multimillion dollar disaster they put out recently.
Maybe it would help if you tried to imagine you were new to the Christmas Carol story. All the exposition that would usually be covered in the breakup scene, which is crucial to the story, was in the song. Without it you lose a crucial plot point about Scrooge's transition. And again if you look around, you will see that cutting it was a very unpopular choice.
Disney is in business to sell a product. In this case, an incomplete one. Less complete, even, than we've had before. They want our money, for, in some cases, the fourth time, for the same movie, yet they ignore the outcry that's happened over the past few years and still refuse to include the song. And you think we should just give up and buy it anyway?
But again, this has all been answered before and you are not going to change anyone's mind just by saying "this is what played in theatres and this is what Disney wants." There is a great deal of history and popular opinion to prove that is not a valid argument.
The fact remains the song was cut at the last minute after the picture was finished by the director, and the cut was so jarring they finally had to go back this time and cover it up. The fact remains that it WAS released to video intact at the director's request. If you want to argue that the director is wrong, well, good luck with that.
Just because you don't feel the passion doesn't mean it is wrong. Try applying the same principle to anything you feel strongly about. If you apply the same factors to any product you may want that has been devalued, repackaged and sold again, maybe you'll begin to understand why people, like any consumers, have a right to rebel against this kind of thing, because if we don't, the merchant will continue to devalue their products.
Not being rude here, it just feels like Groundhog Day for a debate team, having to repeat the same points over and over again when someone comes in late. I've been following this picture around the net on and off for years now, especially since the last DVD and this BR were announced. These statements are not unique to me. Lots of people feel this way. if you look around you'll see that.

 

[BJQ1972]

'Come in late'? I'm sorry but that is possible the most condescending remark I have ever seen on a forum. Maybe because I realise that this was written by Charles Dickens and not Gonzo I felt that no further exposition was necessary. I frankly couldn't care less whether you want to perpetuate the myth that this film is 'butchered' or some similar hyperbole that gets written about this movie. I'll buy it - if you don't want to then that's fine.
As for the whole Disney bad, Brian Henson good:-
"In the months before his death in 1990, my father, Jim Henson, pursued extensive discussions with the Walt Disney Co., based on his strong belief that Disney would be the perfect home for the Muppets," Lisa Henson said in a statement.
So the family relinquished all rights to the muppets, because Disney was the best home for them. Nothing to do with money of course.

 

[Rick Thompson]

1.85, which has been standard 35mm flat aspect ratio for decades, would be less letterboxed than 2.35, which is has been the ratio for anamorphic widescreen.

Well, duh! No kidding! You mean that's why Ben-Hur had much more black? Well, bless my soul!
On that TV (remember, it was an old 4:3 screen), the regular run of films (the 1.85.1 flicks) had a certain black border top and bottom. Muppet Christmas Carol had significantly less. Hence my curiousity, and like I said, I do not remember where I read about the 1.66.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Deep breaths, everyone.

The debates can (and should) continue. But lets keep civil tones with each other.

 

[NY2LA]

Well, duh! No kidding! You mean that's why Ben-Hur had much more black? Well, bless my soul!
On that TV (remember, it was an old 4:3 screen), the regular run of films (the 1.85.1 flicks) had a certain black border top and bottom. Muppet Christmas Carol had significantly less. Hence my curiousity, and like I said, I do not remember where I read about the 1.66.

Ignoring your sarcasm for a moment... You did not make it clear that you thought Muppet Christmas Carol looked less letterboxed than other 1.85 films, just other letterboxed films in general, hence the answer that 2.35 films would have bigger bars. So do forgive me for trying to answer you based on, you know, what you said.
If you are trying to imply that Muppet Christmas Carol was exhibited or transferred at 1.66, I'd have to say it's not likely because there's no evidence of it. Disney reportedly liked that 1.66 AR in 60s and 70s but American pressbooks from that era say something like 1.75 (and there IS evidence that at lease some of those films were shot open matte even if intended to show at 1.75. By 1992 multiplexes and automation and one projectionist for a whole building had gotten so far there's not much of a chance they could get any cinema to play anything but 1.85 or 2.35.
Someone else has posted that Muppet Christmas Carol was hard-matted at 1.85, which is supported by the fact that the 1.33 version seen on VHS and DVD is missing material from the sides. I've heard of some cases where movies would be slightly cropped on sides in letterboxing transfers to pander to those who couldn't deal with the bars.
if you are looking for a more official answer, there is that 800 number on the DVDs.

 

[NY2LA]

'Come in late'? I'm sorry but that is possible the most condescending remark I have ever seen on a forum.

Having read your posts, here and elsewhere, I'd have to say that is not the case.
Fact is, you did come in late to this discussion, both here and elsewhere, without having read prior posts, with the same attitude, and got similar results.
Except that here someone took over an hour of his time to try to explain for you what you didn't take the time to read, what many people have said, in many different places. And instead of understanding, your reaction was - this.

Maybe because I realise that this was written by Charles Dickens and not Gonzo I felt that no further exposition was necessary. I frankly couldn't care less whether you want to perpetuate the myth that this film is 'butchered' or some similar hyperbole that gets written about this movie. I'll buy it - if you don't want to then that's fine.

And you think that's not condescending?
For someone who doesn't care, you have spent a good deal of time and attitude, here and elsewhere, poking at people who do. People who disagree about this movie being cut have found and agreed with each other, started to organize, and express their feelings to the studio. Organized fans have managed to get cancelled TV shows back on the air, so there's no reason to think they are wasting their time asking for the complete director's cut. And even if they are, it's their time. What's the point of wasting yours pissing on them?

 

While I would prefer both versions on the disc, I gotta tell you that the song really depresses me. I know that is the point, but it seems to drag the film to a bummer level. I know and love the story and own several versions and I understand the point, but this is still a family film. Honestly, I prefer to watch without the song as it is really a downer for me.

 

[NY2LA]

While I would prefer both versions on the disc, I gotta tell you that the song really depresses me. I know that is the point, but it seems to drag the film to a bummer level. I know and love the story and own several versions and I understand the point, but this is still a family film. Honestly, I prefer to watch without the song as it is really a downer for me.

It's a downer for Scrooge, too. The scene itself (in the story - however adapted) is a downer. It has to be. if you don't establish a low point for Scrooge it's not much of a transition for him at the end. In this particular movie without the song all we know is the girl leaves. I think the scene where Tiny Tim's fate is discussed is a huge downer.
The whole second half of Sound of Music depresses me. I prefer the movie without it, but I can just stop the disc and wouldn't suggest it be cut.
How do you feel about "Winter Was Warm" from Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol and "You...You" from Scrooge?

 

I agree with you...I'm just saying that personally the song from Muppets depresses me...it may be because I was going through something similar at the time I first watched it, but it made me almost dislike the movie. And this was the only Carol version that did this to me. I prefer to watch the film without it so that I don't have to go through it emotionally! But listen, I want it available because it isn't all about me. That's why I wish there was a choice.

 

[NY2LA]

I agree with you...I'm just saying that personally the song from Muppets depresses me...it may be because I was going through something similar at the time I first watched it, but it made me almost dislike the movie.

That can be a BIG part of it. There are songs, and several whole movies that get to me for that reason. I believe I learned about the Pavlov's Dog Conditioned Response in Psych 101. I once knew someone who got nauseous every time she saw Walter Cronkite because she used to watch him mornings when she was pregnant.

And this was the only Carol version that did this to me. I prefer to watch the film without it so that I don't have to go through it emotionally! But listen, I want it available because it isn't all about me. That's why I wish there was a choice.

Yeah I get you. Have you noticed melancholy songs in several various muppet projects?

 

Yeah, actually I have!

 

[NY2LA]

Shows their appeal and reach was intentionally broader than happyhappyjoyjoy all along. Possibly also the wistful mind of Paul Williams.

 

[MatthewA]

I would have liked to be able to retire my laserdisc after nearly 20 years. Oh, well.

It's getting to the point where I dread each new Disney Blu-ray. And I reached that point as I typed that sentence.

 

[cafink]

I feel the same way, Matthew. I pulled my laserdisc collection and player out of storage this week because of The Muppet Christmas carol. It's sad that in 2012, the laserdisc is still the best way to watch that movie. It's one of a vanishingly small number of laserdiscs that haven't been supplanted by a superior DVD or Blu-ray.

 

[MatthewA]

Originally Posted by cafink /t/322490/the-muppets-christmas-carol-20th-anniversary-blu-ray-available-for-preorder-on-amazon/60#post_3995735
I feel the same way, Matthew. I pulled my laserdisc collection and player out of storage this week because of The Muppet Christmas carol. It's sad that in 2012, the laserdisc is still the best way to watch that movie. It's one of a vanishingly small number of laserdiscs that haven't been supplanted by a superior DVD or Blu-ray.

Coincidentally, it made me think of The Muppets and "Let's Talk About Me." When I saw the film, I thought, "what was that?" Then when I got the Blu-ray and watched the complete version in the deleted scenes section, and the portion that got deleted (but left on the soundtrack, interestingly enough) holds the entire key to Tex Richman's motivation! Some things never change.

 

[NY2LA]

Coincidentally, it made me think of The Muppets and "Let's Talk About Me." When I saw the film, I thought, "what was that?" Then when I got the Blu-ray and watched the complete version in the deleted scenes section, and the portion that got deleted (but left on the soundtrack, interestingly enough) holds the entire key to Tex Richman's motivation! Some things never change.

Good point. Meanwhile someone has started a facebook page to campaign for the uncut Muppet Christmas Carol. Maybe they should ask for uncut Muppet Family Christmas and Muppets movie too...

 

[Tom M]

Good point. Meanwhile someone has started a facebook page to campaign for the uncut Muppet Christmas Carol. Maybe they should ask for uncut Muppet Family Christmas and Muppets movie too...

Do you mean the 1979 Muppet Movie? What do you think is missing? I have a 16mm print of TMM and it's identical to the DVD in terms of content.

 

[NY2LA]

Do you mean the 1979 Muppet Movie? What do you think is missing? I have a 16mm print of TMM and it's identical to the DVD in terms of content.

No I was referring to last year's feature The Muppets, which Matthew has pointed out cut the motivation for the bad guy much like what happened to Muppet Christmas Carol.