The Mariners the best baseball team??? Yeah, right! (1 Viewer)

[RAF]

Quote:

Joseph,
Dan Ducett (sp?) of your beloved Red Sox. The GM who has singlehandedly helped the Yankees even more than all of your "Conspiracy" umpire friends. And now that I realize that you are a Red Sox fan, I will cease trying to reason with you since that explains a lot. Your hatred goes deep and it shows in your postings. I also assume you believe that the Mets won in 1986 because the umps made the ball go through Bill Buckner's legs (or maybe the first base ump blew on the ball so that a New York team would win?)

Case closed as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to waste any more time on this. Rant on.
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
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[Joel Mack]

Dan Duquette should slide under a bus and taste his own blood.

I blame '86 on the TV broadcasters announcing Bruce Hurst (or was it Marty Barrett? Either way...) as Series MVP before the damn game was over.
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"The internet is a place where people from all over come together to
bitch about movies and share pornography."
[Edited last by Joel Mack on October 24, 2001 at 03:07 PM]

 

[Ross Williams]

I'm sick to death of all the Mariner bashing going on. Yes, it is a fact that when it came down to the playoffs they were not the best team. But it is a fact that they tied for the best regular season record of all time. Now you Yankee's fans can whine on and say that the real record was the 125 wins. No it is not, we're talking about the regular season. The fact is that we won 116 games, get over it, your precious Yankees don't hold the American League record anymore. It's really quite sad that the Mariners didn't win the World Series, because that record will forever be marred by it.
It's even more sad that the whole country watches as one of the best teams in history falls apart. All of America saw the M's play like crap during the playoffs. What they didn't see is how they played during the regular season. I watched about 90% of the regular season games and it was pure magic. The team America saw in the playoffs was not the same team I saw all season. The M's would always get the clutch hit when they needed it. The bullpen could absolutely shut down teams in the final innings. And on and on... they nearly always did everything right.
The fact is that the Mariners never went into a slump the entire season. Sure they'd lose a clump of games here or there, but it was never very many. And after a slight bump the M's would come back and take 9 out of the next 10.
They hit the slump that every team hits during the most important time of the year. Be it they were tired, be it there was too much pressure on them, but it was a slump to be sure. If they had been playing like they had all season long, the Yankees would be watching from home. The Yankees proved that they play best when they're under pressure and that is what counts. But don't go taking away what the M's did this season. I doubt that the 116 game mark will be broken any time soon.
p.s. And we M's fans don't care at all where that puts us in the rankings if the Diamondbacks win. We're just sick of the Yankees and their spoiled rotten fans.
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"You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they
don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you." - Silent Bob
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[RicP]

Be it they were tired, be it there was too much pressure on them, but it was a slump to be sure. If they had been playing like they had all season long, the Yankees would be watching from home

Whatever helps you sleep at night. If this...If That... That's the favorite mantra of Mariner's fans. Face it, the team LOST..get over it...stop making yourselves look worse by trying to clamor for excuses.
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Ric Perrott - My DVD's

 

[Rob Willey]

quote: I'd forgotten that incident. You really do pay attention to sports, eh?[/quote]
I was living in L.A. at the time as my beloved Dodgers won the World Series for the first time in 16 years -- "It's Champagne With a Twist of Lemon" (remember when Bob Lemon pulled Tommy John in the 4th inning of Game 6 and the Dodgers won it against the Yanks bullpen?).
While the series was in L.A. for the middle games, that incident at an L.A. hotel got a lot of press. Our first glimpse that Steinbrenner wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer...
Rob
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"That suits me down to the ground."
[Edited last by Rob Willey on October 25, 2001 at 12:24 PM]

 

[Ross Williams]

Believe me I'd much rather have 1 World Series win. I'm just sick of you guys trying to cover up the fact that they had one of the greatest regular, "R-E-G-U-L-A-R", seasons of all time. They blew it in the playoffs, I'm over it.
I'm just trying to defend my team. My team that didn't make it to the World Series, but did win 116 games, more than any Yankee team ever has. I'll just have to sleep with that, until the M's beat the rich, giant monkey with all the gloating, pompous fans, off their back. See you next year.
[Edited last by Ross Williams on October 24, 2001 at 06:27 PM]

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Robert,
You forget, I really wanted to put up a smiley face that throws up, but couldn't find out how.
Ross,
You are 100% right.

 

[RicP]

I'll just have to sleep with that, until the M's beat the rich, giant monkey with all the gloating, pompous fans, off their back. See you next year.

So weren't you a fan in 1995? or are you one of those Mariner Bandwaggoners that have become so prevalent in the last 2 years. Seattle beat New York (convincingly I may add) in 95 and I was disappointed, but I certainly didn't try to conjure up excuses like some of you are.
If anyone deserved a WS chance it was Don Mattingly, but alas it was not to be. And that's fine with me. Remember at that point the Yankees hadn't even sniffed a World Series for 14 years. But the next season...bingo. You never know.
I'm not ready to say See you next year yet...I've got a World Series to watch

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Ric Perrott - My DVD's

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Ric,
Enjoy your series. I'm sure there will be a few hundred other fans outside of NY who will be watching, too.

 

[Ross Williams]

I guess you could actually call me one of the Bandwaggoners, since I really only started caring about the Mariners this year. But I feel like I've been a Mariners fan all my life, simply because of this great season. I haven't really watched any baseball since the strike season. I'd follow what was going on and I'd watch a game here or there, but haven't even watched a single World Series game since then. Before the strike season I was living in California and was a Giants fan. (I'm still a 49ers fan and always will be. I'm a Sacromento Kings fan and always will be.) Now thanks to this Mariner's season, I'll always be a fan of theirs, no matter how bad they play or where I happen to move. This Mariner's season has made me a BASEBALL fan again and I'm going to watch the entire World Series for the first time in years.
Believe me I hate bandwaggoners just as much as the rest of you. Seattle is full of them. They couldn't give a shit about any teams around here until they start winning. I imagine New Yorkers as much more die-hard fans. (Thus all the Mariner's bashing going on around here.) But I'll always follow my teams no matter how bad they are.
Okay, I still feel the need to defend my Mariners some more. I'll say it again, when it came right down to it the Yankees proved they were the better team in the clutch. They've proved it for years now. It took a possible 4th straight World Series winner to knock out the Mariners. One great team beat another. Don't go saying that the A's would have beat the M's too, we don't know what would have happened. Don't discount the Mariner's season, simply because they lost the wrong series at the wrong time. A seven game series, does not make a season.
Here's something I'm sure we can all agree on. That baseball, more than any other sport, is a game of stats. Stats show us who the greatest players of all time were. Stats tell the manager what his line-up should be against a certain pitcher. Stats tell him who he should bring out of the bullpen at a certain point in the game. So on and so on.
So tell me who the better team is. A team that lead the league in batting average, ERA and fielding percentage or one that didn't. A team that won 71% of their games or a team that won 59%. A team that won 116 games against a division that won 51% or a team that won 95 in a division that won 44%. The Yankees got a chance to beat up on the two worst teams in the league 26 more times than the M's did. The Mariner's had to play the only other 100 game winner 10 more times than the Yankees did. When it comes right down to it, the M's will still have won more games this season than if the Yankees go on to win the entire thing.
The Yankees proved they were the better team of the right series at the right time. The Mariners proved they were the best team of the season.

 

[RAF]

Enjoy your series. I'm sure there will be a few hundred other fans outside of NY who will be watching, too

Ric,
Don't you find Tomoko's comment, above, to speak volumes? I don't know about you, but I'm a baseball fan first, and a Yankee fan second (I even root for the Mets when they are not playing the Yankees). I watch the World Series every year, no matter who is playing and enjoy the games. I suspect you do the same thing.
Doesn't it tell you a lot when these "fans" will only watch their team and not the sport as a whole, especially the crown jewel, or culminating event of each season? Reminds me a lot of the little kid who whines and takes his ball home when he doesn't get chosen for the team.

These people call us arrogant. What they don't realize is that we are not arrogant, but we are proud. And, speaking for myself, I'm usually more laid back than this except when "fan" turns into "fanatic" and starts makes ridiculous statements that don't hold up.
This year it was first the Minnesota fans (remember their great start in April?) and then the Seattle fans who were talking smack early on. And as the season progressed the trash talk grew, even though they were reminded that they hadn't won anything yet.
Then reality set in and the excuses started! Instead of acknowledging the Yankees' great accomplishments some fans (not all fans, by any means, just a vocal few) tried to blame the umps, or the stars, or Pan & Scan

or anything else out there for the derailing of the Mariner Machine.
You are right. Ten years from now only people in the Emerald City (and those of us who follow sports for the love of sports and not just to see how our team does) will remember the 116 victories. In the scheme of things, this accomplishment is, in fact, not very significant. Otherwise, why even hold the playoffs? Remember last year when Joe Torre decided to set up his rotation and rest his players in September instead of sacrificing them for the playoffs? The Yankees lost 15 out of their last 18 games and some people who really don't understand the game were using this to "prove" that the Yankees were washed up.
Surprise! Guess who won the World Series in 2000?
Yep. The "Juggernaut."
Our remarkable run (this time!) will eventually end. But I'm willing to wager that both you and I will be watching a future World Series even if the Yankees are not involved. That's what separates the true fan from the fickle fan.
The best they can do is call us "arrogant." But what's more arrogant than quitting as a baseball fan when your team is eliminated?
They just don't get it. Don't you love it when people can dish it out but not take it?
Take care.
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
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[RAF]

quote: The Mariners proved they were the best team of the season.
[/quote]
Ross,
With all due respect, you are distorting the meaning of the word "best." My definition of "best" is the one who is standing at the end. Baseball is one of those sports where a true champion can be crowned without any doubt. There is a playoff process where a winner emerges. (Unlike College Football which really needs a playoff system like NCAA Basketball).
Right now, only two teams are in the running for "Best in Show" honors. Any other interpretation of this is simply rationale, not reality. Spindoctors make a living doing this all the time, but the facts are undisputable.
In a few weeks either Arizona or New York will become the "Best Team of the Season" - a season which lasts not 162 games but up to 181 games depending on developments during the playoffs. No matter how you slice it or try to call baseball a game of stats, that's the bottom line. Teams must play the cards dealt to them in the form of a schedule and to equate what is done during the regular season to what happens in the playoffs - when it counts (once you've guaranteed a spot in the playoffs) - is quite misleading. Look at the Lakers and other NBA teams. They point toward the playoffs where they go full tilt. Blame long seasons for this, not strength of schedule. And that's why, IMHO, regular season stats don't mean squat (other than as a statistical curiosity.)
Nice try, though, Ross. Except for this, I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your post.
Take care.
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
Link Removed

 

[RicP]

Robert,
Very well said and exactly how I feel on the topic. True "fair weather" fans always show their colors, as Tomoko has done here.
I'm looking forward to a great Game 1: Schilling vs. Mussina...should be a classic.
Ross: Keep cheering for the team you like, even during the bad years, that's what makes a fan. I'm glad to see that you're going to watch the series, like Robert said...BASEBALL fans will watch the series. On the other hand...Mariner bandwaggoners will not, but will instead whine and cry.
I look forward to the first Seattle-NY series next year, hopefully we can chat about it then.
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Ric Perrott - My DVD's

 

[Ross Williams]

Thanks guys for the nice closing words. I look forward to next season, where the Mariners will finally prove they're the best team.

I'll watch and enjoy the World Series rooting for the Diamondbacks, hopefully they can finally end the Yankees dominance. I just wish they could have Schilling or Johnson pitch every game.

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Fairweather fan? Give me a break boys. I have been a baseball fan for years and enjoy the world series as much as anyone. I just have gotten tired of seeing the Yankees in it year after year after year. And that is the problem with baseball. For it to really become balanced we will need a remedy.
However, Robert, as the thread topic does bring out is the fact that while you would like to suggest that I am a poor loser (as are other Mariner fans in your mind), the very fact comes out that there are many in this world that are poor winners.
[Edited last by Tomoko Noguchi on October 25, 2001 at 07:36 PM]
[Edited last by Tomoko Noguchi on October 25, 2001 at 07:37 PM]

 

[RAF]

quote: Fairweather fan? Give me a break boys. I have been a baseball fan for years and enjoy the world series as much as anyone. I just have gotten tired of seeing the Yankees in it year after year after year. And that is the problem with baseball. For it to really become balanced we will need a remedy.[/quote]
Interesting comments, Tomoko. I guess, then, that you'll be one of the "few hundred" fans watching the series. I would have thought, from your other remarks, that you would not watch because the Mariners were not in it. I apologize.
I went to my first Yankee game in 1949 (saw Joe Dimaggio play) when I was seven years old. I guess that qualifies me as an "old timer?" I also remember the "Break Up the Yankees!" statements from many sources in the fifties when they also dominated (and used the Kansas City Athletics - moved from Philly - almost like a farm team) This goes in cycles. Don't worry. The Yankee run has to end sometime. Otherwise everyone would get bored, including myself.
quote: However, Robert, as the thread topic does bring out is the fact that while you would like to suggest that I am a poor loser (as are other Mariner fans in your mind), the very fact comes out that there are many in this world that are poor winners.
[/quote]
I never meant to imply that all Mariner fans were poor losers. In fact, lots of them were very gracious once they lost. But I've been beaten over the head with this "greatest team ever" mantra so often during the whole year that my posting of this thread was a reaction to all those comments once it was proven that the Mariners, while a very, very good team this year, did not achieve what I would call anything near "greatest ever" status. If you think I'm a "poor winner" you must understand that this behavior was brought out by "poor losers" and those who insisted on repeating the "greatness" myth even after it had been dispelled. It was just a reaction to all the posturing of those who won't accept the truth. I certainly do not consider myself a sore winner (unless provoked).
Like you said, there's always next year and, maybe, a new champion. (Remember, this year isn't completed yet, and while I fully expect the Yankees to prevail over Arizona, if, in fact, they are upset I won't be offering excuses or pointing fingers at umpires. I'll congratulate the Diamondbacks if they can dethrone the champions. And I'll admit that AZ was a better team this year.) If you read though all my posts in this thread and related ones, I've never ever claimed (yet) that the Yankees are the greatest team this year in all of baseball. That would be premature and it's not my style. All they've proven so far is that they are the best team in the AL - for the fourth consecutive year. The rest is still to be played out starting Saturday.
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
Link Removed

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Thank you, Robert. I apologize for my rash comments, too. I just want to say that what the Mariners did accomplish this year does suggest that they were a great team. They lost in the ALCS and obviously need one more starter like Moyer and Garcia. They also need a left fielder and a new 3rd baseman.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Enjoy your series. I'm sure there will be a few hundred other fans outside of NY who will be watching, too.

Yeah, if it was the M's and D'Backs the ratings would be an all-time high.

Even the Cowboys/Redskins game gave the baseball playoffs a kick in the ratings butt, baseball ratings aren't down because of the Yankees. The ratings are just down, period.
BTW, all Yankee haters should go read Peter Gammons article on how the team was built. Money? Hardly, at least for bringing in talent.
Trades of FARM TALENT for vets, or keeping FARM TALENT, or some straight vet for vet trades. Only Mussina is unique as a true big-money FA. The payroll is high in HOLDING ON TO THE TALENT. Sure the Yanks have an edge with teams that apparently choose not to, BUT...if baseball had an NBA-type cap where you could pay more to keep your own guys, then the Yanks would STILL BE this team.
I mean are you really telling me that the A's of the 88-92 era were big money bullies but now they aren't?? They kept winning, they had big money stars (RICKY FOR CHRISSAKE), the Yanks were one of many teams getting spanked by them.
Plus, you have Seattle as a perfect example of how DUMPING the high-priced talent helps. Just ask the REDS, ASTROS, and RANGERS how that worked out for them. And yet the M's payroll WENT UP. Poor little guys.
If you pull down the Yanks, then you pull down the M's too. They would be taking the same type of payroll cut.
Or were you guys thinking that they would be allowed to keep outspending the Expos by 4-5 times as much but the Yanks wouldn't??
Is everyone in the HTF just 20 years old with short memory. Because to me, the more things change in baseball, the more they stay the same.
I wonder if this "juiced ball" thing is exactly the same crap that writers spent their time with in the 30's when it wasn't just the Babe putting 50+ on the board. Or the 50's when no one outside NY sniffed the postseason did they go on and on about the need for fairness. Was the Big Red Machine some money-made dynasty that was the downfall of baseball?
I mean until '96 the Yanks dominance stuff was a thing of ancient history. 2 wins on 3 trips in 30 years. And the Marlins won in 97. If only Wayne had been willing to back a winner, we would be looking at a Marlins dynasty rather than the team folding...in south FLA. Yeah, no sports fans there. Or maybe, just maybe, it's the owner.
I agree on Montreal being a lost cause, but that is just not a baseball town. And even they have had the best team in the NL as recent as 94 and if they had simply spent on KEEPING their own talent, they would be one of the best teams in MLB right now.
Remember when the Padres screamed bloody murder in 94 or 95, had the fire sale...then proceeded to go to the WS with Brown (bought from FLA no less) among other not-so-home grown talent.
You people that believe these owners don't understand how these billionaires made the money it takes to buy a baseball team, by working the numbers and selling their case to people that will help get them more money. Or do you guys really think that companies that lay-off people are being run by a bunch of guys about to head to the poor house, or that baseball teams aren't just like other big businesses?
Look, I know it's shoved down your throats by bullshitting sportswriters with nothing better to write, but an ERA is not 3 years ago. You don't have the N'Sync era followed by the Brittney era. "In this day and age" does not exclude 5 years ago. The computer era/age is by most measures a SUDDEN one, and even it has at least 10 years of boom with 20+ years of real growth. The wheels didn't fall of the baseball system just 3 years ago or something. The Pirates were a great team less than 10 years ago, as were the Expos, Marlins, Phillies. Do the Pirates need to win the division more than 3 times per decade for things to be "fair"? Really, then the 80's wasn't "fair" to the Yankees.
There will always be last place teams that lose 100 games. When it was the Yanks just about 10 years ago, no one said anything about "the state of the game". What changed besides the Yanks winning? Free Agency, guess again, that was already in full swing. Saleries out of control? Have you actually WATCHED Ken Burns' Baseball, because that is EVERY YEAR for the last 100 years. Babe Ruth had an outrageous contract and there wasn't even such a thing as free agency and it was "the death of baseball".
Other teams will rise and the Yanks will fall, but you won't hear me crying as some other team "bullies" their way over top of them. It's baseball, that's how it goes.
And for the record, Buhner was quoted during the series as saying "if we don't win it all, the season means nothing, it will tarnish the record". He knew it before it happened, but you guys don't see it now. Like if the Yanks had lost in 98 that record would have meant anything either.

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

It seems even the NY Times had a few harsh words to say about their fans.
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[RicP]

Of course the Seattle paper took the comments somewhat out of context (big surprise).
See the full article here..
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/24/opinion/24WED3.html?searchpv=past7days

Ric Perrott - My DVD's