The Mariners the best baseball team??? Yeah, right! (1 Viewer)

[Brett_B]

Anyone want to buy the Pittsburgh Pirates? Please!

 

[Rob Willey]

All this talk about the Yankees spending mega-bucks on their players leads me to one question:
When is Steinbrenner going to smarten up and pour some of that wealth into locking up one of the best managers in the history of baseball for the long term??
Does Torre even have a contract for next year yet!?

Rob
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"That suits me down to the ground."

 

[Patrick_S]

quote: And the owners of the Cubbies have more money than God but what has that done for Wrigley Park?[/quote]
It's Wrigley FIELD not Wrigley Park.
Wrigley field is in fine shape and with no apologies to Yankee fans it's a far nicer place to see a game then Yankee Stadium. Of course that is just my biased opinion.
By the way RAF, you and another poster seem to be living in fantasyland when it comes to corporations owning baseball clubs. I'd give you a lesson in Business 101 so you would understand but I don’t have that much time.

[Edited last by Patrick_S on October 23, 2001 at 03:40 PM]

 

[Marvin]

Does Torre even have a contract for next year yet!?

If I remember correctly, he is only under contract through game 4 of the world series (assuming that game doesn't go past midnite). Seriously.

 

[RAF]

quote: It's Wrigley FIELD not Wrigley Park.[/quote]
Patrick,
Ouch! Did I say that?!? I should have known better. Been there. I stand corrected.
quote: By the way RAF, you and another poster seem to be living in fantasyland when it comes to corporations owning baseball clubs.[/quote]

What gives you the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding corporations owning ballclubs? I fail to see your point here. Tell me what this remark represents regarding any of my comments and I'll respond.
Your love of your beloved Cubbies and your totally wrong prediction regarding the outcome of the ALDS and ALCS have obviously clouded your brain.

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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
Link Removed

 

[Patrick_S]

Your love of your beloved Cubbies and your totally wrong prediction regarding the outcome of the ALDS and ALCS have obviously clouded your brain.

I never picked the Mariners to win the ALCS! Yes I would have prefered them to win but I certainly didn't pick them.
Are you confusing me with some one else?
Just for the record, yes I would like to see the D-Backs pull a major upset and win but it's not going to happen.
Concerning my last comment about corporations owning teams, that statement becomes very clear if you read all of my posts and then read your statement concerning the Tribune's ownership of the Cubs.
I hope it didn't seem too harsh but there seems to be a rampant misconception, (especially with Yankee fans) that a corporation can spend money like it's water if they want to. That is just not how it is in the real world of publicly held companies.

 

[Joseph S]

This B.S. about the Yankees BUYING championships is just that - TALK by people who either don't understand or choose not to understand the real economics.

It most certainly is not BS, if you don't have the money you can't compete. The teams in the postseason every year is evidence of that. For example, Oakland is done if they can't sign Giambi and Dye. Stl, Hou, LA, SF, AZ, Col, Cle, Sea, Bos, NY, Bal, Ana are all at far greater adv due to $ and $ alone.
The Yankees actually make a profit due to cable rights, addidas uni rights, etc even with all the players salaries. The other teams do not, they either lose money, barely break even, or are cheap and live off the stadium drawing fans like the Cubs. No other team outside of Arizona can afford to take on over the hill crap like Canseco, part-timers like Justice and Hill, and mediocre pitchers like Hampton in Sept/Oct. They can and do.
Selig needs to stepdown and let someone else takeover or this game is headed down the tubes fast!!!!! (as in this offseason) You can say the Yanks aren't buying a championship, but they are buying extra insurance on it every year. The guys at Montreal aren't the LA Clippers and have drafted well, they lost out because of the strike and honestly have no shot at ever winning because they don't have any revenue to keep their players.

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

To call the Mariners not even the 2nd best team in the AL is truly someone who has blinders on. Please Robert, get real.

 

[RAF]

Quote:

No, Patrick, I was just referring to the fact you picked Oakland to win the ALCS.
And my references to owners and money were directed to those who keep bringing up the tired old argument that the Yankees buy their championships. My point was that there are a lot of resources available to many teams who do not choose to spend their money and, as a result, have poor teams. The Chicago Tribune, I believe, is a publicly held company, but if they really wanted to do this there should be a way to spend money. The leadership chooses not to do what's necessary to pull this off. There are always ways that this can be done, even in publicly held companies, if approached the right way. Remember, money spent wisely results in a profit (the old Business 101 theory - you remember, that course you didn't have the time to offer me

, that "it takes money to make money".) That's why I applaud Seattle for spending 13 million dollars just to talk to Ichiro. The benefits reaped this year alone in increased interest from the Far East and all the economic fallout more that covers any amount that they paid this exciting ball player. And that's why the Yankees do so well. The trick is not the money they spend on free agents (which always seems, lately, to work out magically - unlike the 80's - ) but the money they do not spend on free agents and others. Can you say A-Rod or Ramirez, or Gonzalez, or Wells, or Sosa? Thank goodness George did not pull the trigger on those deals. On the other hand, right across the river The Mets refused to open the pocketbook and, arguably, lost a chance at a repeat subway series this year. And we can talk all day about the Dodgers, the Rangers, Boston, etc. etc. who spent money foolishly and got very little in return. Yes, I do understand the economics of baseball, at least to the point of knowing that the Yankees are not the only spenders in town by a long shot. (This doesn't solve the problems of the small market teams who are hindered by the lack of salary caps, etc. But don't blame management for that - blame the unions which will never allow the parity of the NFL, for example. But that's getting way off the topic here.)
None of this makes the Mariners better than the A's in my opinion. In fact, because of the deep pockets available to the Mariners (and not available to the A's) this is another reason to salute the A's over Seattle. They did what they did without Nintendo Bucks,etc. which makes their performance even more impressive. Of course, it's probably downhill for the A's from here since they will undoubtedly lose some of their stars to other teams since they can't hold on to them. At least they have their great young pitchers locked up, I think.
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
Link Removed

 

[Joseph S]

quote: Gee, I guess he'll just have to return his upcoming Cy Young award based on your "expert" comments. And a 20-1 start, never done in the history of baseball was just a fluke![/quote]
He went 20-1 because he got 7 runs a game, started 26 of 33 games against teams under .500, left early often which allowed for Yankees to get him no decisions in games like the one vs. Tampa that he left with the lead, and had Mendoza, Stanton, and Rivera do all the hard work.
As for your claim he didn't go 9 because of Rivera, he barely got into the 8th ever. Second, Mussina had 4 Complete Games this year for the same team and same bullpen. Mussina also got half the run support as Roger and had a lower ERA, more innings pitched, and more strikeouts to boot. Guys can get big win records against crap, because those teams barely win as it is. What has Roger done against the top teams and starters versus others including Mussina this year? There is no comparision. A great record with mediocre stats means you beat the crap of the league and got by with mediocre performances. Great stats and a good record show you faced tough competition and excelled. I'm sorry but Pedro and Mussina barely get 3 runs a game and they still win. Roger gets 7 and he can't even same the pen for another night.
He didn't finish 20-1 either. He lost twice to Tampa, got a no decision against Baltimore and in the postseason hasn't seen the sixth inning yet.
and
Who the hell is Ducett?
[Edited last by Joseph S on October 23, 2001 at 09:18 PM]

 

[Peter_A]

Not so much a Mariner should have won vs Yankees post, but just an interesting little tid-bit on why there is so much hostility towards the Yankees. This is from an article that talks about MLB folding the Marlins and Expos before next season to "rid themselves" of the weaker teams in the league. The part below is what I really think rubs people the wrong way about the Yanks:
quote: In its estimate of the value of sports franchises in March, Forbes magazine had the Expos 30th and last in baseball at $92 million US. Florida was 28th at $128 million while Minnesota, now presumably worth more after a surprising season, was 29th at $99 million. The most valuable team was the New York Yankees at $635 million.[/quote]
You can read the full article here.
How the hell can a team like the Expos or the Marlins even have a chance to compete against that!?
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Peter
[Edited last by Peter_A on October 23, 2001 at 10:44 PM]

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Gee, Robert, you seem to think the more words you write down somehow makes it so. Well, let us see--the Mariners had the 2nd best record after the all star game and had a winning record against your 2nd best team and your 1st best team during the regular season. The playoffs were between 4 teams and not 3 and a difficult Cleveland Indians were among those teams.
Yes, the Yankees won the playoffs. However, all but 2 of those games were hard fought games (the dominating 12-3 and 14-3 games). The Yankees pitching was great and so was the Mariners pitching in all the other games (Sele the exception). The Yankees won game 1 and 2 by a score of 4-2 and 3-2. The Yankee hitters in both those games looked no better than a AA minor league as did the Mariners. The 4th game was won on a final 3-1.
And while we are at it: Yankees?

I would have had the smiley face with throwup on it, but I cannot figure out how to do that. Anyone?
[Edited last by Tomoko Noguchi on October 24, 2001 at 12:44 AM]

 

[Seth Paxton]

So if IBM, Compaq, and HP all spend $100 million and IBM outperforms the other 2 and becomes "worth" more, what does that have to do with SPENDING??
The question should be HOW the Yankees haven't had the highest payroll for many years now, yet they are worth the most?
Um, winning...in a major market.
There are some spending differences, but their is also some BUSINESS differences.
Or did Phoenix suddenly become this huge mecca of power and money.
Let's try to keep things realistic. The Yanks spent in 1986 and had MORE free agents then than now...and lost. The key to success is home grown talent and KEEPING THE CORE TOGETHER. That's true with any sport. It's much more of a fluke when things come together suddenly.
Bean set out to spend WISELY and look what the A's have become...a better team than the Yanks till game 3, that's what.
The M's brought in Ichiro just like the Yanks got El Duque. But the Yanks are cheaters and the M's are underdogs??? With their payroll?
D'backs traded LESS talent to get Schilling than the Yanks did to get Clemens. And since I was living in Houston when Randy chose to sign elsewhere, I can say for certain that the feeling in HOUSTON (4th largest city) was that ARZ were big bullies pushing the Astros around with all their money.
Think about that. That's how the people in Houston felt. It was everyday on talk radio there. Phoenix bullying Houston. Think that's how they felt in 95 with the Rockets as champs compared to the Suns.
My point...ALL cities feel somehow screwed over by money from other cities when it doesn't work out. NO ONE pays attention when money FAILS.
Even worse is when someone blows it, then some other team brings that loser in and spends big money on his decisions only to have them run the team into the ground.
Hell, I hate Phil Jackson, but what more proof does anyone need that the people running the show have a lot to do with the success of the money. From annual failures to World Champs.
So to me, this year, all the contenders looked very similar in build. The Twins and Phillies couldn't make it (and by the way, when did Philly become a small town).
If you have a good market and yet your franchise is failing (and at this point the market would have to be smaller than Phoenix) then maybe there is OP ERROR.
Otherwise I want answers to why Justice is no longer with the Braves or Indians? Why the M's WON without Randy, who is apparently critical and a sure thing in the World Series. Why the Phillies did better without Schilling?
All these teams pick up guys, or do trades for guys who they won't be able to afford, yet some of these teams claiming poverty turn around and spend MORE MONEY than they were the year before. Does anyone REALLY feel sorry for Atlanta or Houston?? Can the Cubs have Maddux back now?
And if the Yanks had been losing since 96 guess what??? Big George would have already moved Rivera, Jeter, Bernie (he almost did in the early 90's), Tino, Pauly (he's been on his ass for years), Pettite (almost did), Knobby (remember what he did with Sax).
The ONLY difference between 1990 Yanks and 2000 Yanks is that the 2000 Yanks WIN. This can make or break lots of teams. Or would the Orioles REALLY have let Mussina go if all their spending had brought some World Series victories???
I guess we need to go back to the golden era before free agency when spending was fair and it was always New York teams (Dodgers, Giants, Yanks 5 straight) winning or in the WS.
Considering how many WS rings Knobby, Clemens and Mussina had BEFORE coming to the Yanks, yet Jeter, Tino, Pauly, Bernie, Rivera, Pettite were always a part of it, I wonder what the real key to their winning is. After all, someone already mentioned all that run support Clemens got.
Would the M's REALLY trade Garcia for Clemens this year, or Mussina. Would the A's prefer to have Hudson and Zito or Clemens and Mussina.
For what it is worth, I was certain that the A's and the M's would both beat the Yanks, and I wonder why anyone thinks that a team with 2 Cy Young candidates and a runner-up MVP 50+ HR guy is an UNDERDOG. I would consider the upset to be for the Yanks to knock off 2 100+ winners and the D'Backs. Even I wouldn't have put money on that a few weeks ago.

 

[Tomoko Noguchi]

Seth,
And I think you are right. Home talent is what will make Seattle and Oakland better pitching teams. Of course, Seattle did get Garcia, Moyer, and Sele via trade, but what is coming up through the system is what many are talking about. I read somewhere that the Mariners had the top teams in most, if not all, the minor league system that they were they played in. I think that is what will lift the Mariners in the future.

 

[Jeff Adkins]

Wrigley field is in fine shape and with no apologies to Yankee fans it's a far nicer place to see a game then Yankee Stadium. Of course that is just my biased opinion.

Well, I don't consider myself biased at all and I couldn't disagree more. If anything, I should be biased towards Chicago since I lived 3 hours away from there for 22 years. To me, the excitement level just doesn't compare. Nothing comes close to Yankee Stadium. People in middle America just love to bash New York. Most of the people in my hometown who would badmouth New York had formed this opinion based on what they had seen on television (hardly any of them had ever even been there).
Go Yanks!
Jeff

 

[Joseph S]

Would the M's REALLY trade Garcia for Clemens this year, or Mussina. Would the A's prefer to have Hudson and Zito or Clemens and Mussina.

They'ld be nuts to do that. $22 million v. probably $2 million or $11 million vs. $600-900 thou. Talk about bad business practices. By the time arbitration rolls around Oak nets around $100 million savings. Young talent at cheap prices is the only hope of most teams in this league.
My team spends with the best of them and hopefully the new management will continue to do so, but it still is agonizing to watch any team play crap like the Devil Rays, Expos, Marlins, etc. It's not competitive and just disheartening to watch the Devil Rays blow the few 8 and 9 run leads they get in the 8th and 9th innings.
Football's model really has proven to be the best. The teams make money, the fans get a quality performance, and you never know who will be the next cinderella. In the past few years we've seen the Jets, Balt, TN, Stl, Atl, Giants and others go from pretenders to contenders (and back) overnight.

 

[RAF]

Tomoko,
Aha! Now you are getting down to the nitty-gritty here. You are disappointed so you try to resort to "throw-up"smiley faces. Yeah, right.
You can quote all the statistics you want, but the only ones that really count are who's standing at the end, and that was my original point. As you probably know, statistics can be used to disprove anything, even on both sides of the argument. The only thing that counts is the end result.
The Seattle Mariners had a very good season, but they didn't finish the job. The 116 wins during the season will be just a small pimple on the face of baseball because they came up short, real short when it counted. And your argument about the games being close don't mean a damn thing. In case you don't realize it, you only have to win a game by one run.
And give me a freakin' break with this. The Mariners lost the series 4 games to 1. Reality check: 4 games to 1 is not "close" it is a BLOWOUT! (I'm surprised you didn't add up all the runs scored in the series to try to prove your shallow point!) The Met fans tried to use this shallow argument last year as well, but they also lost 4-1. BTW, the Mets were a much more formidible opponent last year than the Mariners were this year.
The bottom line is that the Seattle Mariners FAILED this year to do what they set out to do. The Oakland A's also FAILED, but put up a better fight against a common opponent. In case you don't get it, the prime objective is to win the World Series. All three teams, as well as Cleveland made it through Stage 1 of the AL (getting into the playoffs). Now only the Yankees move on to the final stage where the champion is still to be determined.
I'm assuming you will be rooting hard for AZ as if that somehow makes your Mariners a better team. I've got a flash for you. IT DOESN'T! Ironically, your argument would be stronger if the Yankees win since if AZ wins, your beloved Mariners fall further down the list since AZ is then obviously better than Seattle as well.

You can write as much as you want and quote as many stats as you can, but this doesn't change the fact that your team lost and, as I said before, you obviously can't handle this. Normally I don't respond so passionately to postings like yours once the point has been proven, but this year, almost from Day One, many Mariners' fans were proclaiming them "the best team ever" even before they won anything. Most Seattle fans finally acknowledged that the season is over quite graciously, but you won't let it go. Stats, excuses, etc. etc. Let it go and wake up!
Wait until next year!
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RAF
[Demented Video Dude since 1997]
[Computer Maven since 1956]
["PITA" since 1942]
Link Removed

 

[Samuel Des]

Actually, I lived in Manhattan for nine years, and saw a lot of Yankee games. I've also seen my fair share of Cubs games while growing up. Between the two, I prefer Wrigley. I disliked that Pontiac warning track thing.
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Best, Sam

 

[bill lopez]

It's not the Mariners fault they put in all these playoff series. I mean they play 162 games and then have to go thru 2 more rounds of playoffs and give 2 teams a chance to go to the World Series. It's Baseball's fault!

 

[Rob Willey]

If I remember correctly, he is only under contract through game 4 of the world series (assuming that game doesn't go past midnite). Seriously.

That makes sense. Contracts probably expire at midnight Oct. 31 since the season is usually over by then.
OK, possible scenario: The Yanks win three of the first four, then Torre walks becuase he's no longer under contract. The Yankees tank and lose the last three. Steinbrenner blames Torre, everybody else blames Steinbrenner. Steinbrenner gets beat up in an empty elevator again ("it was twenty years ago today...").

Rob
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"That suits me down to the ground."