What's new

The Good & Bad of DRM (Digital Rights Management) Technology on Future Video Formats (1 Viewer)

Aaron_Brez

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 22, 2000
Messages
792


Actually, Hollywood acts as the prosecuting attorney, the corporations who own the keys that will be revoked act as the defense attorney, and the AACS-LA body or the DTCP body act as the judge, jury, and executioner-- and if the "defendants" don't like the result, they can appeal to a real live court of law to settle the dispute. Then and only then will keys be revoked through player updates.

(This is all in the HDCP licensing agreement, and though AACS licensing information has not been made public, it's written by essentially the same bunch of folks. Hardware and software people don't want keys revoked-- because who has to pay for it? Them!-- and they're going to make it as hard as possible for Hollywood to do it.)

As always, I must add the caveat that BD+ is so poorly defined that we don't know if it follows the same sorts of rules as HDCP/AACS. Likely the judge, jury, and executioner for BD+ is just the BDA. But the same idea applies: Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, and Pioneer don't want to deal with customers flooding their service lines, mass returns, crummy press, and even lawsuits, and they will fight key revocation if it's going to disable players.

The only thing you have left is if you object to the disabling of hacked players. Well, sorry. I respect your right to hack a device you own, and wish the DMCA were revoked and you could tweak to your heart's content. But I can't and won't agree that when you've violated the warrantee by modding something the company that sold it to you is somehow still liable for its proper operation.
 

Rob Gillespie

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 17, 1998
Messages
3,632
I don't have any problem with a studio protecting the content of it's discs from being pirated.

I do have a major problem with a studio or any other organisation to whom I am a customer screwing with MY property in order to protect THEIR business interests.

An EULA to play a CD or DVD? Horseshit. Having a disc locked down to a particular player? More horsehit. Them installing malware on my machine? Shove it where the sun don't shine.

You know, this is just entertainment and it would be just as easy for me to dump the entire hobby as it was to get into it in the first place. Either that, or just NEVER buy into their upcoming cash-cow of HD/DVD/Blueray/whatever which at present seems to be much more about givng the studios as much money as possible rather than providing a quality product. The worse part for them is that any protection will be cracked and perhaps all those who - like me - feel bloody aggrieved at being treated like a criminal will be tipped over to the dark side and not bother buying legit copies of anything.

Studios - we owe you nothing. Stop treating us like crap or face the inevitable financial consequences.
 

ChristopherDAC

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
3,729
Real Name
AE5VI
I thought everybody knew about this. Disney likes to release their films for a short period and then withdraw them again, only to bring them back out when everybody's kids have ruined theirs and a new copy is hard to find. It's how they can keep their price points high: they don't expect anybody to tell their kids "No, we can't watch Snow White!" This was easier back in the days of VHS, since tapes actually wear out with playback, although DVDs still get stepped on, and microwaved, and smeared with peanut butter; but natural wear-and-tear wasn't good enough for Disney. They actually put into some of the initial releases of The Little Mermaid {this is all from memory, and anyone with details is invited to correct me}, within the cassette shell, a little counter mechanism vaguely resembling an automobile odometer, hooked to a spring-loaded catch and a razor blade. After the tape had been played end-to-end [or perhaps just loaded and unloaded?] a certain number of times, the razor blade was supposed to cut the tape. It malfunctioned quite a bit, and once word got around people found that it was easily defeated, so they didn't try that again.
Unfortunately, they now have a law which forbids people to circumvent any such mechanism, as long as it's "digital". What's so magical about that word? Make anything "digital" and suddenly it's special. Digital cameras, digital music players, digital rights management, digital millenium; gag me.

Anyway, I don't see that being read-only is a form of "rights management". 78s, 45s, LPs and [commercial music] CDs have always been read-only, and I don't know of anyone who complains about them. It's not like there was anything keeping anybody from hooking up a LaserDisc player to a VCR -- LDs have never had Copigard, Macrovision or anything of the kind. Almost every LD owner had a VCR as well, and yet there was never a widespread "piracy problem", partly because of the unattractive real-time dubbing aspect; in fact, the only such thing I can think of would be the nasty habit certain video-store owners fell into of making tape dupes from LD [superior quality to the contact-printed official product] during the very beginning of the "rental window", when tapes were both expensive and hard to get, which led to LD releases being delayed from the corresponding tape releases by a few weeks.
 

AaronMK

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 30, 1999
Messages
772
Location
Orlando, FL
Real Name
Aaron Karp


They don't "control" appliances in that sense of the word. They control whether electricity goes to the costumer, and it being on the condition of the services being paid for is just them asking for basic fairness. If content were power, and Hollywood was the power company, then the power company requiring license agreements and limited functionality of any power consuming device would be more comparable.


I agree that consumer and manufacturer pressures will keep the key revocation horror scenarios in check, but that only means something if you can get revokable keys to begin with. The issues of limited functionality and Hollywood essentially making copyright law for those devices still remains.
 

Ronald Epstein

Founder
Owner
Moderator
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 3, 1997
Messages
66,561
Real Name
Ronald Epstein
I'm going to back up a few posts above, not
mention anyone specifically, and strongly urge
that we don't bring unecessary political barbs
into to this discussion.

Thank You!
 

Aaron_Brez

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 22, 2000
Messages
792


Hey, I'm behind any effort to tame the DMCA-- which is entirely the culprit, here: without it, HDCP and AACS and even BD+ are trifling annoyances rather than legally enforceable locks.

But I don't have the same level of fear some of the folks here have about the functionality of my players going south due to Hollywood stupidity.
 

FrancisP

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
1,120

That is ridiculous. What happens is that updates are sent via the hi-def discs. If you unfortunately fall into one of those categories, then you get shut down. There are no hearings. There is no determination as to whether you are breaking any laws. You can go to court but it takes time and money. Even if you are right, you lose because of legal bills.

Essentially they can make copyright law. They can set up a condition without any checks and balances. This bill, if passed, would give consumers no recourse. The only rights we have is what Hollywood gives us. In that case, you better put your hand on your wallet because thath's what they're going for.
 

Daniel_TS

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
67
Blu-ray Goes for a More Complex AACS. Will That Be Enough?
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Blu-R...ugh-6196.shtml

"Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has finally decided to reveal its wonder technology aimed at protecting Blu-ray discs, the same technology that convinced Fox Entertainment to say that all its movies will be coming only on this support.

A rather foreseeable ending, because, after it promised something mysterious and kept the whole project locked-up tight from the “nosy” journalists, the Blu-ray standard ended-up choosing the same anti-piracy system as its eternal rival HD DVD, AACS, short for Advanced Access Content System.

The only difference being that Blu-ray is adding another two supplementary security elements: ROM Mark and BD+.

ROM Mark is a sort of stamp, invisible to the consumer, which can be embedded using special equipment available only to licensed Blu-ray disc (BD-ROM) producers. Obviously, these discs will only be compatible with Blu-ray equipments.

The other standard, BD+, is a little bit more complicated invention and it allows BDA to dynamically change that encrypting code if DVD Jon type hackers compromise it. In other words, if someone invents an application similar to DeCSS, BDA will change the encrypting key and everything goes back to normal, all the discs released afterwards implementing the new scheme.

HD DVD went for something simpler and decided to use just AACS for the content’s protection.

The protection system revealed by Blu-ray looks like the result of some genius raised on movie production studios, who has made researches all his life to find a way to prevent the annual $3 billion losses from the movie industry. And all this, because some funny hacker decided that DeCSS has to be brought to the world.

The only thing BDA didn’t mention is the price of such a miraculous disc, but you can bet your state of the art DVD player, which you have recently bought and which will end up in the dumpster (you didn’t think you will be able to use Blu-ray discs with it, did you, now?), that it will be far more expensive than its HD DVD counterpart.

Just think about the fact that producers will have to modify all their production lines and to purchase BDA licensed equipments able to embed the ROM Mark; all these expenses will be recovered, obviously, from the consumer’s pocket.

Another detail BDA forgot to mention is what happens with the wonderful protection system if the disc suffers physical shocks. If your DVD has a tiny scratch on its surface, it doesn’t render the disc unusable, but if the same happens on your Mark ROM, all that you’ll be able to do is to throw away the disc with Spielberg’s last movie, which probably cost for times the price of a regular DVD.

The protection scheme proposed by BDA will even prevent you from making backup copies of the discs, so be extra careful with your future optical acquisitions.

Moreover, the other security element, BD+, will be able to block the players that have been modified so that they allow the playback of alleged pirated Blu-ray discs.

In other words, although you have always been on the legal side and you’ve always purchased only the most genuine Blu-ray discs, if one of your “loving” friends gives you a pirated disc, the next time you’ll want to view a movie (from a genuine Blu-ray disc), you will probably have to throw your Blu-ray player out the window (because BDA has changed the encrypting scheme).

Movie producers might have been thrilled by the system proposed by Blu-ray, but for us, the consumers, it looks very complicated and prone to errors.

Anyway, it’s clear now that the unified format dream is over, and all these security measures will only cause confusion amongst consumers and the postponing of the standard’s adoption towards the end of 2007, if we take into consideration the changes disc producers will have to make."
 

Cees Alons

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 31, 1997
Messages
19,789
Real Name
Cees Alons
Only if your (possibly modified) player allows this change to be effective ("insert pin here to reset firmware to default factory settings").

And I agree with Rob: will this potentially terrible mess be worth the purchase of that technology and all it needs to use it?


Cees


PS I'm very tempted to propose a change of the title of this thread to "The Good, the Bad & the Ugly of DRM (Digital Rights Management) Technology on Future Video Formats" to the originator.
C.
 

AaronMK

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 30, 1999
Messages
772
Location
Orlando, FL
Real Name
Aaron Karp


If they turn out to be trifling annoyances and legally enforceable on the level that CSS is, then I will be very relieved. At least there would be hope that those who want to do more with their movies than play them in Hollywood approved devices will have options. DMCA might make them illegal, but that really has not been a problem for those seeking comperable options for DVD. It is just a question of whether or not they can be made as downloadable software.

Even without DMCA, Hollywood could still use their contracting power and encyption to dictate usage, and use EULAs to make it legally enforceble. It seems the only thing DMCA does is make breaking the locks a criminal offense instead of civil.
 

Nils Luehrmann

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
3,513
Which is also why the speculation that this is a certainty (that an inappropriately revoked player will not be unlocked) is rather absurd... IMO.
 

Daniel_TS

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
67
I guess the Softpedia article is based on the SPDC / BD+(?) technical paper.
http://www.cryptography.com/technolo...te_papers.html

"...The most practical and effective of these combine programmable code with encrypted digital content. This code would be distributed as part of the content, execute dynamically during playback, and enforce each title’s security policies. Publishers could then control security for their own content..."

"...each title carry its own security logic, policies, and countermeasures..."





Is there anything new revealed by the Blu-ray Disc Association?
 

FrancisP

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
1,120

The fact is that this is possible and that it has not been ruled out. The problem is that in a worst case scenario, the studios could cause a lot of mischief. There are no firm ground rules as yet. Studios can say anything they want know but five years later can change their mind. It looks like the blu-ray disc association is being run by Fox because they don't want Fox to leave.

With the fair use doctrine extended to vcrs, there were a set of ground rules in place and home video flourished. Acceptance of digital and hi-def would be enhanced if there were a set of rules in place and were legally binding.
 

Kevin M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2000
Messages
5,172
Real Name
Kevin Ray
I don't know about all of the conspiracy theories regarding the studios wanting to own my soul & eat my children, but I do know that the more complicated they make the copyright mesures on these discs the more chances it has of failing under real world use......I don't like the idea of coming home to find that because my kid borrowed a BR Disney from another kid and tried to play it in my BR player now I can't watch anything, or if that isn't one of the protocols then my kids getting finger prints on them an somehow triggering one of my discs to stop playing all together...or whatever...some word from SONY about exactly what these CRP measures are going to entail would go a long way towards alleviating some of my (and others) concerns.
 

Aaron_Brez

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 22, 2000
Messages
792

The same can happen already with satellite dishes and digital cable boxes, and PVRs. They can send out signals which disable your device if it's hacked. Has there been a huge surge in inappropriate shutdowns since this technology was introduced in the 90s? Or lawsuits therefrom?
 

Carlos Garcia

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 11, 2004
Messages
1,065
Bottom line? Pirates will still find a way. Wherever there's anti-piracy software, there will always be a pirate that comes along and defeats it in time. We are now living in a digital world, and everything digital can be encoded and decoded. The pirates will ultimately defeat DRM, and the answer to this will be the same answer the studios have always given them when their works get pirated: They move on to a newer and better system. VHS got pirated, along came DVD. DVD gets pirated, along comes HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. When they defeat this format, along will come another "better" format with yet stronger anti-piracy software...which eventually will be defeated as well...and so it goes.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,815
Messages
5,123,835
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top