1. Guest,
    If you need help getting to know Xenforo, please see our guide here. If you have feedback or questions, please post those here.
    Dismiss Notice

The Dark Knight Rises

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Adam Lenhardt, Apr 30, 2010.

  1. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    16,228
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Location:
    Albany, NY
  2. dana martin

    dana martin Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Messages:
    2,439
    Likes Received:
    449
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Real Name:
    Dana Martin
    actually i hope that the script is on par with dark knight, and i wonder how long after the script is approved, that the viral campaign will kick in, the last one was the best build up for almost a year, ready start all over
     
  3. Paul_Scott

    Paul_Scott Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm hoping for something a little less silly and foolish myself.
    And better structure wouldn't hurt either.
     
  4. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    16,228
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I would rather have another movie like Batman Begins than another The Dark Knight. The second film was fantastic, but it opened Gotham up way too much. Batman needs to go back into the shadows.
     
  5. Michael:M

    Michael:M Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nolan doesn't like repeating himself; chances are very good Batman 3 will resemble neither film overtly in tone or theme.

    I'm also wondering about the viral campaign; it was actually a 14-month one for TDK, MORE than a year prior to release (it started in May of 2007, with the ibelieveinharveydent.com site opening and viewers helping reveal the close up still of the Joker's face. I hope they'll do something similar.

    Nolan's interview with the LA Times indicates that they've come up with a satisfying thematic way to close the trilogy - I wonder if they'll kill off Batman or end with him retiring.
     
  6. Brent M

    Brent M Producer

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2001
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm so baffled by this statement I don't even know what to say. All I do know is that I hope Nolan does EXACTLY what worked to make Batman Begins and The Dark Knight so damn good!
     
  7. Paul_Scott

    Paul_Scott Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    1
    I had some niggling problems with the film immediately after I saw it, but it wasn't until I re-watched it months months later at home that all the massive logic holes, that don't seem to bother many other people of course, made it near impossible to surrender to and enjoy. The film has become one eyeroll after another for me.
    It's just recently that I realized the problem with TDK actually starts with Begins coda, when Gordon tells him "y'know, you really started something here." Batman should be public enemy #1 at that point, but instead he gets a major pass and credit for inspiring the once corrupt cops. TDK follows this patent absurdity and takes it to new levels. It would be one thing if he was a stealthy, rarely seen ninja like figure who tries to never make his presence known. But his first scene in TDK he is destroying property left and right, depriving people of their civil rights (both criminals and off duty cops) and basically rolling around the city like he owns it and using explosives when he feels like it for 'show'. And then in the next scene we see the cops have little enthusiasm for taking him down.
    Wow.
    This rings so false for several reasons.
    The cops in the city abdicate all their authority over to this non affiliated vigilante- why exactly? If the premise were being treated realistically, they would have such a hard on for taking this character down after all the events of the first film, he wouldn't be able to function.
    If nothing else, cops don't usually take kindly to civilians that attempt to usurp their authority- especially when those civilians put cops (and the public) in harms way, destroy infrastructure, and consistently evade capture and are using military grade weaponry in the process.
    The notion that we could ever get to the point where this character would ever be allowed to interrogate a suspect is absurd- even if you ignore the bobblehead costume and silly voice. It would be one thing is Batman gassed the police and took his liberties that way, but to have the cops endorse his activites and give him carte blanche-when it opens them up to civil and criminal charges and jeopardizes prosecutions- no way.
    I don't care how beloved it is, the film is all kinds of sloppy in both its execution (sequences that abruptly end even though there has been no real resolution i.e the party crashing) and in it's themes (Batman and Gordon feel that the city needs the illusion of a white knight why?) Just hours earlier the Jokers social experiment revealed that the population of the city ,including a hardened criminal element, had already reached a state of selfless altruism. You have two mobs in a life or death situation and irrational mob-think never takes over. That's both unrealistic and sloppy.
     
  8. WillG

    WillG Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    5,305
    Likes Received:
    30
    So let's just not have any Batman anymore at all because the flaws you are describing are inherit to pretty much every version of Batman that ever existed.
     
  9. nolesrule

    nolesrule Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, FL
    Real Name:
    Joe Kauffman
    You just described the Detective Comics Batman universe in a nutshell. In other words, in terms of reverence to the source material, Nolan hit a pair of home runs.
     
  10. Paul_Scott

    Paul_Scott Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    1
    Or they could just put a little more critical thought into the material at the script stage.
    Any basic story editor could read it and then ask "how would a child/cop/wife/civilian/criminal etc logically behave in this circumstance?" "Character 'A' does something, or this 'event' happens- what forms would the blowback assume?"
    Actions create logical reactions. Following those through sometimes takes you off the course you want the story to be on, but TDK is what you get when you completely ignore them. A lot of people may not care about logical cause and effect or rational character behavior, and just love the finished product- but that doesn't change the fact the film requires the viewer to "turn off his brain and just go with the flow".

    The Adam West series was just as reverent to that era's comic book content. But silly is still silly.

    If Batman wants people to think he killed Dent because that will make him seem more of a threat to the criminal element, that's one thing. It's a pragmatic rationalization supported by the scene in the film where Maroni tells him to the effect, 'we know you don't cross that line'.
    A logical reaction to that action is then having the police hunt him down for murder.
    Action/reaction.
    Instead, Nolan serves up this nonsense about the city is fragile and needs to believe in white knights, blah blah blah, when if anything, the films plot has just completely dis-proven that notion (the two boats sequence). Nolan is hell bent on bludgeoning home a theme that he can't seem to see his film doesn't support. Very odd how spot on he can be sometimes, and absolutely tone deaf a few minutes later.
     
  11. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    5,660
    Likes Received:
    738
    Real Name:
    Sam Favate
    Nice to see this get a release date, and only two years away (not that long really). I suppose pre-production will begin as soon as a script is complete.

    Is Nolan's Superman (he's producing) also set for 2012? December, maybe? Did I read that or am I making it up?
     
  12. Steve_Tk

    Steve_Tk Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2002
    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that was proven to be false, RE superman.
     
  13. Ben Osborne

    Ben Osborne Second Unit

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul, are you saying the two boats sequence shows that the people of Gotham can act virtuously even without "white knights" as examples of virtue? I'm not sure I understand your argument.
     
  14. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 1998
    Messages:
    7,794
    Likes Received:
    7
    Paul I had some of the same issues you did, I was just a bit more willing to let them slide. As said in the Phantom Menace thread some of the complaints you have are part of Batman mythology and have been forever - the batsignal, Gordons assistance,etc.

    "But his first scene in TDK he is destroying property left and right, depriving people of their civil rights (both criminals and off duty cops) and basically rolling around the city like he owns it and using explosives when he feels like it for 'show'. And then in the next scene we see the cops have little enthusiasm for taking him down."

    I had issue with the explosives scene as well. I dont think Batman would be willing to set off rocket launchers in the city (see my final point below). As for denying criminals their rights, when hasnt Batman done this at times during his career? But thats also one of the points of the movie - do the ends justify the means? and how far do you go to stop crime? Even one of the viligantes says "What give you the right? Whats the difference between u and us"? This scene also contains what might be my favorite lline in the film, where Batman says "I dont need help" and Crane says "Thats not my diagnosis". And its long been a question of Batman issues since the 80s - is Batman as dangerous and psychologically screwed up as the people he dresses up as a giant bat to catch. The film never claims Batman is in the right.

    "If the premise were being treated realistically, they would have such a hard on for taking this character down after all the events of the first film, he wouldn't be able to function."

    Its made pretty clear that Gotham Policy is to arrest Batman. Hes protected by Gordon, but all other cops should be gunning for him. That is told to us in Gordons conversation with Dent. We dont see this happen, but the conversation tells us the police should be trying to stop Batman is the gaps we didnt see between films. When Batman appears, you only have Gordons inner circle around.

    "I don't care how beloved it is, the film is all kinds of sloppy in both its execution (sequences that abruptly end even though there has been no real resolution i.e the party crashing)"

    Actually if you remember in the discussion thread, quite a few people did have a problem with this scene feeling it had no resolution. Based on production stills, there was a cut scene that did show Joker getting out of Waynes apartment.

    "It would be one thing if he was a stealthy, rarely seen ninja like figure who tries to never make his presence known. But his first scene in TDK he is destroying property left and right, depriving people of their civil rights (both criminals and off duty cops) and basically rolling around the city like he owns it and using explosives when he feels like it for 'show'. "

    As we saw in BB that is basically how Batman operates.Stealth, ninja tactics, observation,etc. But having Batman bust this meeting also shows hes been working the criminal element during the gaps between films, with the same tactics previously mentioned.

    I had the same issue with that scene as you did - until I realized that Batman had a chance to take down 3 problems here. The Mobsters, Scarecrow - whos he'd been hunting for a year and as well as some of the viligantes. Batman isnt going to need to use such extreme tactics to take down a group or mobsters on a dock (first film) or jewelery theives. But this was a big bust. Ninja tactics or not, thats a large group to take on. With so many "criminals" to take down in one attack - I can buy the rocket launchers to distract,confuse and cause panic.
     
  15. Brian Borst

    Brian Borst Screenwriter

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sure, the movies are riddled with plot holes, if you think about those situations realistically. The thing you have to ask yourself is: am I bothered by it that much that it destroys the movie for me? You can ask that about every movie, and everyone will react differently to a movie.

    The character of Batman is inherently flawed in that he's trained to be a ninja, and whatnot, but uses a glorified tank (in the Nolan movies) and a plane (in Burton's first movie, the animated series and the comics) to move around. I don't care about that, because frankly, Nolan's Batmobile looks incredible in the movie.
     
  16. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 1998
    Messages:
    7,794
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ive always felt superhero movies work best in the "real world" setting. If they take place in fantasy land, you loose the feeling of these characters being exceptional. "Oh theres a guy who looks like a penguin. Hes even got flipper hands. Just another day in Gotham". I feel this is a huge missed opportunity with Xmen. Should people ever really be used to the sight of seeing someone who looks like Beast when you plant the film in a setting of the "real world"?

    The problem is when you establish that Batman takes place in reality, people expect the script to work in reality.

    Ive explained why the Batman strike in the beginning of TDK works for me. I admit how Joker rigs the hospital or boats is a bigger problem.
    (Ras Al Ghul explains that Gotham is so corrupt that they were able to easily infiltrate the police and such. So I buy that Joker can gets guys who - plant Joker cards in a judges paperwork,rig a tunnel or a hospital)

    A simple scene earlier in the film showing the Jokers men planting explosives in a tunnel for example, would prob solve Pauls issues with believing Joker could rig the tunnels to explode late in the film. Seeing the scene early in the film, you wouldnt know what they were doing, but it would come together at the end when Joker tells the city the tunnels are rigged to explode. It would solve the problem of being a unbelievable feat done with no preparation to something that had been planned.

    But as said, these type of nitpicks could apply to endless list of films.
     
  17. Greg_S_H

    Greg_S_H Executive Producer

    Joined:
    May 9, 2001
    Messages:
    15,260
    Likes Received:
    221
    Location:
    North Texas
    Real Name:
    Greg
    The studio said, "We don't discuss rumors," which had people thinking it was false, but Nolan later confirmed his involvement.
     
  18. Cory S.

    Cory S. Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2004
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    4
    JonZ,

    The problem with Paul's argument is that, although Nolan is painting a plausible Batman in a not too far from reality version of Gotham City, The Joker character, in essence, is all theme. He's really not to be thought of as literal in the Dark Knight. He's meant to push the theme of the film...a physical embodiment of the ideas Nolan wants to push...
     
  19. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 1998
    Messages:
    7,794
    Likes Received:
    7
    Understand your point. But again if you place the film in "reality" ... people who think about what theyre watching are going to find plot holes claiming the film doesnt hold up to lapses in logic.

    Even when youre dealing with a superhero - which requires suspension of disbelief - real world setting or not.

    I think it was pointed in the Begins thread by someone that the film is hard to take seriously as happening in "reality" when we're watching the Tumbler jumping rooftops and driving on the roof of the church.
     
  20. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    16,228
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Location:
    Albany, NY
    The movie would argue that it was Harvey Dent's example that pushed them toward those altruistic ends.
     

Share This Page