What's new

Ten Biggest Lies in Audio (1 Viewer)

Shiu

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Messages
447


I read your post again and I am at a loss. I have never said anything about the effect of moving the passive crossover from one end of the wire to the other. Please read my post again if you don't believe. Regardless, like your point on the Fourier transform topic, there is no disagreement! As an aside, it allows us to work back and forth between the time domain and frequency domain, works great.

All I was trying to say was: The speaker has links that shorts out two sets of terminals, one for the LF the other for the HF crossovers/drivers. Without bi-wiring, the single pair of speaker cable must carry all the signals from the amp to the speaker. At the joined (common) point, the XOs filter the signals to the LF and HF drivers. In this case, the single pair of wires has no choice but to carry signals of full range of frequencies, e.g. 20 to 20,000 Hz.

Using bi-wire, and with the links removed, the XO networks are now separated, it is now like having two separate speakers, but one will accept only LF the other only HF because of the different XO/filter networks. It is the characteristics of the impedance of each individual XO/filter network that forces a desired frequency band of signal to flow through the pair of cable that connects to the respective XO. The EMF that you mentioned at the amp output terminals are the same, but the impedance of the two signal paths are not different and are frequency dependent due to the two different crossovers in each path.

Why wouldn't you agree that each (remember they are now separated, isolated period)crossover that is connected to its own pair of cable would choose its own signals of the preferred frequencies. To sum up, bi-wiring means neither pair of wires will carry the full range of frequency. Whether this makes the sound different or not I don't know and I am staying out of it. I hope this help clarify one specific point.
 

Shiu

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Messages
447
Elliot, if I remember correctly, the Paradigm studios have two sets of terminals and links. You can bi-wire or bi-amp them using their own internal crossovers. You have to remove the links in either case. I don't know how you can bi-amp them and not use their internal crossover unless you open it up and bypass them.
 

Elliot_W

Agent
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Messages
47
Shiu, I meant that by having a monitor/sub combo, one is allowing the sub to take on the lower Hz and the monitors to take on the higher Hz....my AVR was determining what the crossover point was set at.

I wasn't literally bi-amping the monitors, just referring that they benefited from having a lesser Hz range to work on.

Should be more careful with my choice of words with such experts on board :D
 

Shiu

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Messages
447
Thank you Elliot, honestly I knew what you meant in your first post, I was just curious about your second post point ii.
 

Elliot_W

Agent
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Messages
47
Shiu, it was more of a question than a comment...
I'll restate as a proper question:

When bi-wiring, are a speaker's crossovers being employed, or are they bypassed altogether once the links are removed (and the speaker now relies solely on the current supplied from each set of wires to drive the bass/midrange and tweeter respectively)?
 

Shiu

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Messages
447
With bi-wiring, the crossovers inside the speaker are still employed and will do their job. To be sure how it works for your specific speakers, you may want to call Paradigm to get a definitive answer. You may read this link I posted before and get more detailed explanation.

http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemp...ewssectionID=3

Many speaker manfacturer's sites also give explanations of how bi-wiring work. Axiom is one of them. As to whether it will make your system sound better, you have to find out for yourself.
 

Philip Hamm

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 23, 1999
Messages
6,874
Your "ii" described biamping not biwiring. Biwiring does absolutely nothing. Anyone who thinks it does is factually wrong, it doesn't matter if they write a 1000 page book about it, it's still wrong.
 

John Garcia

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 24, 1999
Messages
11,571
Location
NorCal
Real Name
John
In both biwiring and passive biamping, the internal x-over is being used. If it wasn't you would be sending full range singal (or whatever signal is being fed to the speaker) to all the drivers in the chain.

Active biamping would mean tailoring a crossover, most likely electronic, BEFORE the amplification stage so that the amp is only amplifying the frequencies intended for each driver.

Biwiring is the same thing as using thicker wire, so unless your wire is insufficiently sized for what you need, it will make no difference.
 

Elliot_W

Agent
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Messages
47
B&W would never lie! I feel better already about buying those Canare bi-wires off e-bay.

Wish I spent this much effort in choosing the bloody speakers.
 

Chu Gai

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
7,270
What B&W's scientists say and what marketing says is often at odds as it is with many companies that do business with the public. There's a way to stretch the truth and the facts leaving you, the reader, to read into it what you will.
Shui, you weren't really surprised that when you sent the same signal into both halves of your system, with the jumper straps removed, that you got different currents, are you?
 

Shiu

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Messages
447


Chu, I was not surprised, because it is consistent with basic electrical principles. The umpteenth times, the two different crossover sections at the speaker end force the signals flowing through the two "halves" to be different.

Some people insist that because it is still joined at the amp therefore this is no electrical difference. To me, its like saying that because your 6 wall outlets all come from the same 15 amp circuit breaker in the panel board down in your basement, so it does not matter what you plug into each outlet, they all get the same current, same waveform etc. I know I may be stretching now, just to make a point.

As far as whether bi-wire will improve sound quality, I am not a believer at this point. However, even B&W, stretching or not, say people with keen hearing could tell the difference. Mine hearing is not that keen but I am not going to guess whether others can hear the difference. There are people who claimed to hear "huge difference" between amps too, I can't, not (huge I mean) between a Bryston and a Adcom anyway.
 

Chu Gai

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
7,270
Well sure there's going to be a finite difference but does the difference rise to the level of audibility? One could theoretically model the difference and see if it has a reasonable chance of being audible. I seem to recall somebody from Tektronix doing that but I don't know what they found. If the difference is small, then it's not entirely unreasonable to say that there is essentially no difference.
For yucks and giggles, email B&W and ask them their recommendation for gauges of zipcord for top & bottom assuming something like a 10 foot length and watch them dance around things. Then email the same question to a variety of speaker wire vendors like Cardas, AQ, and anyone else you can think of and see what you get. Then wait something like 2 months and send the same questions out again. Think you'll see any consistency?
 

Shiu

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 18, 2003
Messages
447


Chu,

I read the schematic and I now realize why people can get confused. The author (your pcatech link) appeared to have shown that single wire and bi-wire are electrically the same, by demonstrating that the signal voltage (or emf) at the speaker terminals (inside the enclosure, and behind the crossover network) are the same. That's a narrow way of defining "electrically".

Surely in either case, the speakers will end up getting the same signals, i.e. the LF driver(s) gets the L.F. signals and the H.F. driver will get the H.F. signals, but that's not what the speaker manufacturer's such as Axiom, B&W and others are saying. Speaker manufacturers are only saying that each pair of wires that connects between the amp and the external speaker terminals will carry signals of different frequency bands. Now, they, at least B&W, seemed to be saying that even though the signals received at the speaker terminals (behind the crossover networks) are the same, but in the bi-wire case, some of the non-linearity due to interference between each drivers, are reduced when the wires are no longer shared by the L.F. and H.F. drivers.

Whether the simple and only fact that the L.F. pair only has to carry L.F. and the H.F. pair only has to carry H.F. and the resultant less non-linear contents will make the speakers sound different" is an entirely different subject. If you read both links (the pcatech one and the b&w one) again carefully I think you will know what I am getting at.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Forum statistics

Threads
356,814
Messages
5,123,703
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top