TEMPEST IN A TEAPOT OR TITUS (1 Viewer)

[Persianimmortal]

But you are overlooking the very simple fact that if they struck a new HD transfer, loaded the release with extras and released it for $15-$20, they would sell hundreds of thousands and be as super rich as Criterion and the all the studios and the discs would FLY off the shelves and all their losses would be covered. Simple business 101. The average consumer is waiting for each of these titles, as long as the quality is higher and the price is lower.

$15-20?? Highway robbery! Titus is worth around $10 at most, unless it comes in a steelbook, in which case I'll pay more. It should have around 15 hours of extras, be a pristine transfer (although I'll take an older transfer as long as the nice case and extras are there), maybe even include a Titus Andronicus action figure, which would be nice.The Harvard MBAs over at Bluray.com assure me that such a package would sell well over 3,000 copies. It's just sad how clueless Twilight Time is about giving the customer what they want. People will always pay more for quality - isn't that why 75% of disc buyers still buy DVD over Blu-ray...

 

[lukejosephchung]

$15-20?? Highway robbery! Titus is worth around $10 at most, unless it comes in a steelbook, in which case I'll pay more. It should have around 15 hours of extras, be a pristine transfer (although I'll take an older transfer as long as the nice case and extras are there), maybe even include a Titus Andronicus action figure, which would be nice.The Harvard MBAs over at Bluray.com assure me that such a package would sell well over 3,000 copies. It's just sad how clueless Twilight Time is about giving the customer what they want. People will always pay more for quality - isn't that why 75% of disc buyers still buy DVD over Blu-ray...

After reading this and the previous posts in this thread, I'm REALLY wishing there was some kind of sarcasm emoticon for the internet...

 

[Ethan Riley]

I guess a lot of people simply don't understand that TT caters to a niche market, offers films with limited demand and little interest from the studios that provide them. As such, these films cost $30 because, again, they are being served to a niche market of hardcore film enthusiasts. I really don't understand the controversy. Is it really just a money thing? People are upset because they don't want to pay the $30 for these films? I don't get it.

In addition, I am very pleased with the four films I've ordered from them, realize very well that the studios never would have bothered to put them out on Blu in the first place, and can provide anyone who cares with a long, long list of films that I hope TT gets in the future and that I'd be more than willing to pay $30 each to see.

 

[Anthony Neilson]

But TT are an odd case, aren't they? And I think this is partly why they get such flak. Look at the other premium-price labels: Criterion specialises in international cinema, and the perceived wisdom is that anything not in English isn't going to sell that well. Flicker Alley is releasing the Cinerama films, which are a niche of a niche.

The problem for TT is that whilst they release a fair amount of vintage films, they also regularly release films which we - as film lovers - are shocked to hear described as niche-titles, like AS GOOD AS IT GETS or NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD or THUNDERBOLT AND LIGHTFOOT - the list goes on. These are films whose right-to-exist was never in question back in the glory days of home video.

But TT's very existence tells us those days are over. It tells us that the studios aren't interested in releasing these films and we don't want to hear that, don't want to believe that, can't believe that. Personally, I've no doubt at all that Nick Redman is telling the truth about the economics behind TT. But when a film like CHRISTINE sells out in a few hours, it fuels the self-deception of those who want to remain in denial about the fact that the world - and even the studios, mercenaries that they are - do not share our love and respect for film.

As I've said, I think TT could communicate better and more wisely. But the naked hostility towards them seems too rabid to be purely about price. I think there may be an element of shoot-the-messenger at play.

 

[bgart13]

And Persianimmortal continues to be condescending... You state we'll never get it and won't allow ourselves to understand it. Ever think that maybe you're not allowing yourself to understand where some of us are coming from in having issues with their model? Anyhow...Sometimes I think the companies like Fox have pulled a fast one over on TT, playing them like suckers, or that they're in on this model together. Anyways...

 

[Persianimmortal]

After reading this and the previous posts in this thread, I'm REALLY wishing there was some kind of sarcasm emoticon for the internet...

As it happens, there is! It's called Sarcmark, and is usually sold for $1.99. I'm being completely serious.

I'm one of those people who gets carried away with the sarcasm sometimes, and I really should add smilies to the end of those posts I make... but I really like seeing whether people can tell if I'm being sarcastic or not. The sad part is that often, people can't detect the absurdity of my sarcastic posts because, well because there are so many maroons out there on the Internet who post this sort of stuff seriously.

Back to the TT debate, and yes, it really does all come down to the price. You see people state over and over again that cost is the deciding factor, even for better quality transfers. You get geniuses like this one, over in the Enemy Mine TT thread at that other forum, stating categorically (and apparently quite seriously) that:

No movie is worth $30.

A couple of posts earlier, a more generous person says this:

Enemy Mine being worth $30 is really up to the individual considering the purchase. I'd spend $12-13 on it if it was a good master, and go as high as $15 if it was loaded down with extras.

...but I don't give Twilight Time my money, so it's a moot point in my case.

And that's for Enemy Mine, which had a good transfer. There you have it. At least some folks are honest about the fact that they just won't pay more than $15 for a movie - and even then it has to be "loaded down with extras", kind of like piling as much food as possible on your plate at a buffet to make it worthwhile

Strap yourselves in for a bumpy ride with regards to more back catalog releases on Blu-ray (and I dread to even think about back catalog on 4K), as the market is being choked to death by the "I can buy six Mill Creek BDs for the price of one TT BD!" cheapskates.

 

[ahollis]

And Persianimmortal continues to be condescending... You state we'll never get it and won't allow ourselves to understand it. Ever think that maybe you're not allowing yourself to understand where some of us are coming from in having issues with their model? Anyhow...Sometimes I think the companies like Fox have pulled a fast one over on TT, playing them like suckers, or that they're in on this model together. Anyways...

Well why don't you start a Blu-ray releasing independent company and do your business model. I'm not trying to be an ass but the continuing grip that Twilight has a bad business model is getting stale. It's what it is and not going to change. If you want the titles then buy then, if you don't them don't buy it.

 

[bgart13]

Oh, I wish I could. But I'm not moving to LA or NY and don't have the capital. Sorry!

 

[TravisR]

If you want the titles then buy then, if you don't them don't buy it.

A somewhat related thought: This isn't really directed at anyone here at HTF but if someone is hellbent on owning Titus on Blu-ray and hates the price, I can see griping about it but how many people were genuinely interested in that title at even $15 or $20? It seems like a lot of people just want to whine and Twilight Time is a convenient focal point of their negative energy. If it wasn't TT, they'd be mad that this company doesn't make nice enough cover art or that that company uses eco-cases or whatever thing they want to latch onto since their real 'joy' comes from griping about stuff.

Once again, I'm not really talking about anyone at HTF since the people here that are critical of TT don't seem to be on a crusade about it (none that I've noticed anyway).

 

[Ethan Riley]

A somewhat related thought: This isn't really directed at anyone here at HTF but if someone is hellbent on owning Titus on Blu-ray and hates the price, I can see griping about it but how many people were genuinely interested in that title at even $15 or $20? It seems like a lot of people just want to whine and Twilight Time is a convenient focal point of their negative energy. If it wasn't TT, they'd be mad that this company doesn't make nice enough cover art or that that company uses eco-cases or whatever thing they want to latch onto since their real 'joy' comes from griping about stuff.

Once again, I'm not really talking about anyone at HTF since the people here that are critical of TT don't seem to be on a crusade about it (none that I've noticed anyway).

Honestly, I thought some people in the Oliver! thread bought the German blu-ray of that for cheap just to shove it in TT's faces.

 

[ROclockCK]

TT release the masters they're given, mostly bare-bones in bog-standard packaging. This is not a complaint, as such: It just means that - in the absence of "frills" - their one responsibility as a premium-priced product (as Mr Redman seemed to recognise) is to make sure that those transfers are either unimpeachable, or that there be a very good reason for them not being so.

Well congratulations, you broke ole ROCK!

After two and a half years of listening to countless posters (mostly elsewhere, now suddenly here it seems) trot out the same tired phases "barebones" and "no frills" when dismissing the Special Features on TT's releases, I just couldn't stand it any longer. It was either get to work, or get drunk. I chose the former, but think I now need the latter.

So here are the facts regarding TT's [sic] "barebones", "no frills" discs, charted year by year, relative to their total number of releases (compare sub-title vs. left hand column):

Yeah, pretty thin on features outside of TT's customarily sweet lossless Isolated Scores. Most of these were DVDs anyway. Besides, ya gotta start somewhere...even Criterion with its whopping expensive 'barebones' Laserdiscs. Uhm...jus sayin.

Already benefitting from a few sellout successes, it's clearly going right back into the product. Gaining more studio trust, and able to include more features. Gaining more visibility and traction too. So what's next?

Whoa! Who let the dogs out? This stuff is "barebones"? "No frills"? I still haven't watched all of these discs with their commentaries. And as we head into the new year...

In just the first two months of 2014, TT has already exceeded its entire special feature content offered in 2011. And if you don't count the ISTs , then 2014 is already equalling all of 2012 too.

NOTE: Not charted because a 5th column would have topped out on every diagram: the wonderful savvy and sassy insert essays by Julie Kirgo. Every TT release...every month...year in...and year out. One of the best film scribes I've ever had the pleasure to read - and always read - before the disc even goes into my machine.

 

[ahollis]

Oh, I wish I could. But I'm not moving to LA or NY and don't have the capital. Sorry!

Not sure you need to move to LA or NY. Olive is out of the Midwest. As for as capital is concerned. A good business plan would bring investors.

 

[Jari K]

Simple question: would Criterion release Titus on Blu-ray?

Many of the movies TT brings us would never be released on Blu-ray by anyone, anywhere, period.

Perhaps it's a simple question to you, but the answer is not simple. We simply don't know. To me it seems that Criterion can release pretty much anything - and certainly everything that TT is putting out (perhaps excluding some odd mainstream titles like "As Good as It Gets" etc). You know the Criterion's selection "process"? I'm pretty sure that there are many factors which come to play when Criterion is evaluating what titles/transfers/extras it's going to release. And plenty of research and legal work.

Further more, this "TT is the ONLY company that can release this-and-that" is pure speculation. Sure, perhaps they're picking more "obscure/rare" titles, but like I said earlier: They're just licensing the EXISTING HD transfer and release it on BD. Any company with some expertise can do that. They don't spend money on the A/V restoration nor extras.

$15-20?? Highway robbery! Titus is worth around $10 at most, unless it comes in a steelbook, in which case I'll pay more. It should have around 15 hours of extras, be a pristine transfer (although I'll take an older transfer as long as the nice case and extras are there), maybe even include a Titus Andronicus action figure, which would be nice.

Joke or not, this is getting a bit old. But yeah, action figure sounds kinda good. When it's coming?

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

As Rock states this "bare bones" stuff is total nonsense and he provides a nice chart to show the evidence. I am telling you honestly here, when you see dump bins full of $5.00 blus you are looking at the reason tangible media will be replaced with streaming. When they are dumping all that product at that low a price it means that product has lost its value and hence there becomes little reason to provide that product to the market. All of these $10.00 or less blu-rays are a bad sign.

I understand people wanting to "get a deal" but what happens is when there is loads of a product available at a super low price people begin to believe that is all the product is worth. So, when you can buy a blu-ray for $5.00 (Ridley Scott's Prometheus is now available for $5.00 for example) people begin to believe that is all they should have to pay. When they see blu-rays all over the place at under $10.00 they are obviously going to believe that $30.00 for a blu-ray is ridiculous.

The thing is if you look at Twilight's effort to get these films to the marketplace you begin to see that because they are bringing you a rare commodity and doing so as a small company their cost per unit would obviously be higher and require a higher end price to the customer to make it worthwhile.

The bottom line then becomes if $30.00 is a lot of money for you to purchase one of these blu-rays then these blu-rays are not meant for you.

Well congratulations, you broke ole ROCK!

After two and a half years of listening to countless posters (mostly elsewhere, now suddenly here it seems) trot out the same tired phases "barebones" and "no frills" when dismissing the Special Features on TT's releases, I just couldn't stand it any longer. It was either get to work, or get drunk. I chose the former, but think I now need the latter.

So here are the facts regarding TT's [sic] "barebones", "no frills" discs, charted year by year, relative to their total number of releases (compare sub-title vs. left hand column):

Yeah, pretty thin on features outside of TT's customarily sweet lossless Isolated Scores. Most of these were DVDs anyway. Besides, ya gotta start somewhere...even Criterion with its whopping expensive 'barebones' Laserdiscs. Uhm...jus sayin.

Already benefitting from a few sellout successes, it's clearly going right back into the product. Gaining more studio trust, and able to include more features. Gaining more visibility and traction too. So what's next?

Whoa! Who let the dogs out? This stuff is "barebones"? "No frills"? I still haven't watched all of these discs with their commentaries. And as we head into the new year...

In just the first two months of 2014, TT has already exceeded its entire special feature content offered in 2011. And if you don't count the ISTs , then 2014 is already equalling all of 2012 too.

NOTE: Not charted because a 5th column would have topped out on every diagram: the wonderful savvy and sassy insert essays by Julie Kirgo. Every TT release...every month...year in...and year out. One of the best film scribes I've ever had the pleasure to read - and always read - before the disc even goes into my machine.

 

[Persianimmortal]

Further more, this "TT is the ONLY company that can release this-and-that" is pure speculation. Sure, perhaps they're picking more "obscure/rare" titles, but like I said earlier: They're just licensing the EXISTING HD transfer and release it on BD. Any company with some expertise can do that.

If another company wanted to come in, pay the licensing fees up front, then turn around and sell these niche movies at a lower price and expect to make more money than TT, then I would assume they already would have. That's how competition works. If Titus was going to be released by anyone else, I'm sure they would have found a way to do it by now, whether in the US or elsewhere in the world. Ditto for many (most) of the other movies TT has released on BD. So it's not "pure speculation" to say that many of these movies would never be released on Blu by anyone else.As I observed earlier, there are a heck of a lot of shrewd businessmen and women on the Internet forums who seems to always be two steps ahead of Twilight Time when it comes to armchair analysis of their business model. It's particularly easy to do if it's not your own money that you're risking on titles that may never break even.Oh and for the record, I think including action figures with Blu-ray releases is a brilliant idea. Like the bubblegum that came with trading cards, or those toys you find in Kinder Surprise chocolates. I mean if cardboard wraparound 'slipcovers' or tin ' steelbook' cases seem to take peoples' fancy, and get them to part with more money, then why not go even further with the useless junk? Do you hear me studios, make it happen. You know it's the real reason Blu-rays aren't selling, don't you?

 

[bluelaughaminute]

But you are overlooking the very simple fact that if they struck a new HD transfer, loaded the release with extras and released it for $15-$20, they would sell hundreds of thousands and be as super rich as Criterion and the all the studios and the discs would FLY off the shelves and all their losses would be covered. Simple business 101. The average consumer is waiting for each of these titles, as long as the quality is higher and the price is lower.

If ever a post demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the market and the TT model it's the one above.
Do they really think that many of the titles that TT release would sell ten times their current figures if they were half the price and had an additional fortune spent on them creating new extras?

Honestly, I thought some people in the Oliver! thread bought the German blu-ray of that for cheap just to shove it in TT's faces.

I bought the German disc of Oliver because it was available a long time before TT even announced it as a release and Oliver is also available in the UK and other countries as a region free disc at very low prices

 

[Jari K]

...then why not go even further with the useless junk? Do you hear me studios, make it happen. You know it's the real reason Blu-rays aren't selling, don't you?

You've probably bought many many DVDs over the years and many many Blu-rays. Right? I'm sure you've a pretty good idea what they cost and what you'll often get for that price (for many many years now). You know that we don't talk about action figures, steelbooks or "useless junk" here (although my son loves my DVD/BD figures!). In a matter a fact, I don't think that anyone has mentioned "useless junk" here when we talk about features that are often lacking from TT's releases. Or features that you SHOULD get for 30 bucks (again, see what Criterion is doing).

By reading these discussions (and some comments from TT) I actually believe that some of you kinda like the idea where BD collecting becomes a "elitist" hobby. Expensive, limited edition releases where the A/V quality is back on the spotlight. No more useless extras or "junk". Just a classic film and a class of good wine. You've a "beer budget"? Go buy Death Wish 5 and a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon.

 

[TravisR]

If ever a post demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the market and the TT model it's the one above.
Do they really think that many of the titles that TT release would sell ten times their current figures if they were half the price and had an additional fortune spent on them creating new extras?

I'm pretty sure that John was making a joke.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Mostly, I don't care about the "extras" but the Twilight discs do come with "extras" so this should not really be a part of the issue. The film this thread is about comes with special features intact.

To me the film is the thing and the majority of "extras" I may watch or listen to once and then never revisit again. It is the film I want and that I want to revisit.

There are some films where I want to hear the filmmaker talk about his work and in those cases the commentary track tends to be the best feature.

Criterion's special features vary as well in quality. I recently picked up Thief the Michael Mann film and was thrilled with the presentation of the film but found the special features to be just ok. I don't rate releases on special features though just on the quality of the presentation of the film itself.

I think the prices of Twilight discs are not elitist and are offered at a "beer" budget...in that it costs me about $30.00 for a case of beer these days so I could buy a case of beer or a movie I really love for the same price.

The difference is the movie can be enjoyed over and over again whereas with the beer you drink it once and then it's gone. Buying the film is like buying a magical case of beer that each time you empty a bottle and put it down it refills itself again at no cost and you don't even have to get off the couch to grab another one.

 

[bgart13]

$30 for a case of beer?? Well shit, there ya go, you elitist beer snob.