SVS on Music vs. REL (1 Viewer)

[David Judah]

I didn't find them slow necessarily, just not particularly articulate throughout the upper bass regions

The GD numbers in the upper bass region should be close to equal to a sealed sub, but output will definitely suffer up there due to the low tuning. It's the price you pay for extension and it's not just an SVS thing--it's a compromise that any manufacturer would face.

What alot of commercial designs do, however, is sacrifice the low end for more output up high. The problem with that though is that you can't recapture the low end when you need to.

A better solution, IMO, is to have MAINS that can go relatively low, mated with a low tuned sub(like SVS), and a lower crossover. You get the best of both worlds, which sounds like what you got when you lowered your crossover.

DJ

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

I'm not trying to jump in the middle of this shark tank, but dumb question: How does the damping factor of the amplifier being used factor into this? I'm not talking just SVS here, but with any subwoofer. Would a sub hooked to an amp with a higher damping factor sound "tighter" than one with a lower damping factor or would the difference be negligible?

In support of Ron's argument, I went from a Polk PSW-350 to the SV 20-39CS+/S1000/ART-351. For the first day, I was kind of unsure how to feel about the SVS. However, the more I listened to music with it, the more I realized what I had been missing before. After about a week listening to various CD's, I went to a friend's house and heard his Velodyne... and whereas before I had thought it sounded decent, it now sounded horrible to me. My ears had become accustomed to the sound of the SVS. When my friend heard the SVS, he loved it for home theater but said he likes more punch for music... but then he listens to techno/house and I listen to bluegrass/jazz/punk/ska. The same thing happened when I EQ'd everything to reduce some nasty room peaks. For about a day or so, I wasn't used to the sound of it. After I became accustomed to it, I heard detail I never had before.

I think people have a good point about setup and calibration having an effect as well. In my EQ'ing, I discovered that reversing the phase of the SVS helped even out a null I had around 63Hz with only a minimal effect (about 1-2dB) on the crossover range. To me, it sounds right. To someone else, that might just be crazy talk!

 

[MarkO]

Well this thread shows one thing clearly. You're preference on how a speaker should sound in any given system, pertains to subs also. Im still keeping my REL for my music only system tho. For my A/V system its SVS time soon. The're just to good to pass up. I just hope Ron or Tom dont toss a dead fish into the ports before shipping it to me :frowning:

 

[Richard Greene]

Thanks Walt:

Getting musical bass at home is not easy .. unless your speakers produce little bass in the range of roughly

30 to 70Hz. where room modes cause serious problems.

You could use mini speakers with no subwoofer -- then claim your bass may not be deep, but it's "very musical".

Boring.

As the bass extends below 70Hz. the primary axial room modes become audible ... and below 30Hz. structural home noises become audible (especially below 20Hz. in my house).

I've attended about three audio club meetings in Tom Nousaines's home. One time when he demonstrated his

8 - 15" TC Sounds driver infinite baffle sub at a very

high volume -- I quickly got nauseous and had to bail out of the room. But fortunately there was a keg of beer on the deck (for medicinal purposes). His -3dB point is something like 12Hz. (a true bassnut). Most important was Tom's plywood (I assume) floor rattled at high volumes -- reminded me of my own listening room walls rattling at

18-20Hz. at high volumes. Both sounds are far from "musical" and problems that might be minor with inexpensive subwoofers (or with no subwoofers) compared with someone using an SVS or some other powerful subwoofer.

In addition, when I run a 1Hz.(really) to 100Hz. five minute long sine wave frequency sweep at home (Stryke.com Basszone test CD track 5), EVERYTHING in my house

(except the floor -- home built on concrete slab)

rattles at its particular resonant frequency,

even my cat!

I also have an enormous bass peak at 40-55Hz. before equalization (worse than +10dB).

Dishes rattling in my kitchen cabinets, window frames rattling in my dining room, fillings rattling in my teeth, and a huge bass peak at one or two specific frequencies related to room dimensions are TYPICAL of bass problems in many ordinary home listening rooms.

If you want "musical" bass without moving your subwoofer outdoors, the house noises and room modes (particularly frequency response peaks audible at your listening position) have to be addressed.

This applies to most listening rooms.

I'd say 90% of rooms could benefit from bass equalization

(90% of rooms I've measured had bass deviations exceeding +/-6dB measured at the listening position using a slow sine wave frequency sweep (measured with no equalization or crossover tricks such as using a high pass filter set at 100Hz. and a low pass filter set at 50Hz. to reduce output at the common 71Hz. floor-to-ceiling room mode in rooms with 8 foot ceilings -- the oldest room tuning "trick"

in the book)

It's a rare room that sounds fine without bass equalization, IMHO. Sometimes two subwoofers can be

placed at or near opposing walls to tame ONE particular room mode. But there are limits to where a subwoofer can be moved and certainly your seating position MUST be selected to optimize sound quality above 80Hz. -- as much as I love bass (I popped a nail out of the plasterboard in my listening room last night, proving I am a true bassnut!)

I'm not going to sacrifice performance above 80Hz. with a crazy listening position because my subwoofer sounds good when I sit there!

 

[Barry Barnes]

Don't get me wrong, someone that prefers another sub, REL, Audiovox, WHATEVER is not automatically some nutcase! It does demonstrate, I hope, that the power of human perception is something we do not try hard to mess with at SVS.

I think that's exactly what we are trying to do. What we have going on here is akin to "conditioned response". If anyone dares to blaspheme against our SVS subs we will smite them with a newspaper until they learn!
Seriously though. There is no need to embarrass anyone here. People are simply telling the truth as they see it. To imply they don't understand bass is kinda the same thing as saying they are "nuts" no? Because you deny that you called them nuts in the next sentence doesn't make it so. It's like hitting them on the head and then saying "don't worry though, because I'd certainly never hit you on the head!". C'mon Ron. You are better than that...
With my many conversations with you and Mr. Vodhannel, I have become a huge fan of you gentlemen and your company. Having said that, I think the polite bullying is beneath you and counter productive. Publicly embarrassing someone, while effectively quieting their voice, it also alienates even your fans on a subtle level.
I know I felt a knot in my stomach after seeing the polite but mean spirited analogy of the man who listens with the treble all the way up and the Bass all the way down. The implication is pretty hard to miss and I think a bit unfair.
Anyway, just speaking my mind and no offense intended. I just think that the product is good enough on it's own merits. Most problems folks have with them can be solved constructively. Unless of course the real purpose IS to try and shut these folks up. I don't think that's what you guys are about. I'm thinking the few folks that return them could have been helped and they might have been made happier. By shutting down their voices publicly, it only serves to make you an enemy and thus a lost customer and possibly a lost sale to the next guy.
I know in my case, it's about the only thing you guys do that bugs me. Otherwise, you are absolutely outstanding. I wish all companies had the same customer service work ethic. You guys are amazing and deserve all the good things that are coming your way. Why cheapen that? The few shortcomings I had with my SVS sub was easily rectified by adjusting the level (as you suggested) and playing with the Xover point a bit.

 

[Barry Barnes]

The GD numbers in the upper bass region should be close to equal to a sealed sub, but output will definitely suffer up there due to the low tuning. It's the price you pay for extension and it's not just an SVS thing--it's a compromise that any manufacturer would face.
What alot of commercial designs do, however, is sacrifice the low end for more output up high. The problem with that though is that you can't recapture the low end when you need to.
A better solution, IMO, is to have MAINS that can go relatively low, mated with a low tuned sub(like SVS), and a lower crossover. You get the best of both worlds, which sounds like what you got when you lowered your crossover.
.

Exactly my point in a previous post. I think all subwoofers have strengths and weaknesses. Not every sub is going to be perfect for all things. In the case of SVS, I think they have one of the best Home Theater subs on the market. It's also a good performer for music as well. I wouldn't trade one ounce of that low bass thunder for a more articulate higher end. In my case a 60 Hz crossover point all around made my few problems virtually disappear. I guess that was point in my rather long previous post. To "educate, not intimidate"

 

[David Judah]

Don't forget there is a health benefit to the low bass thunder, as well. It saves on the prune juice budget.
DJ

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Mark,
the only fish you're getting is if you order it. We probably gone through 50 improvements/tweaks on our subs since the first one was shipped...and I bet half of them(tweaks)were due to constructive criticism. It might seem strange,but I actually found your comments a little refreshing compared to the type of criticism SVS has suffered through from a couple of internet stalkers(guys who descend on any positive SVS discussion they can find and turn the thread into a salem witch hunt style trial for svs) lately. It is sort of tough to listen to parroted criticism about a design you've worked on for hundreds of hours...from someone who has never heard or seen a SVS ...and/or doesn't even own a subwoofer .
I don't exactly agree with your comments that the SV is *adding* something it shouldn't..but I can understand that POV if the SVS is being compared to something like the REL.
TV

 

[ling_w]

What alot of commercial designs do, however, is sacrifice the low end for more output up high. The problem with that though is that you can't recapture the low end when you need to.

You mean HT subs.

Isn't mocking someone who wanted all treble indirectly mocking all the guys here that wants their bass run HOT?

I don't set my sub to be hot or cold, or for the matter even use the wide band pink noise to set its level, since the transition from main to sub is more important than having the main's avg level via pink noise be the same as the LFE's.

I had no problem with my roomate in college. I had a Rotel preamp that had no bass/trebel or balance knob.

 

[Barry Barnes]

I actually found your comments a little refreshing compared to the type of criticism SVS has suffered through from a couple of internet stalkers(guys who descend on any positive SVS discussion they can find and turn the thread into a salem witch hunt style trial for svs) lately. It is sort of tough to listen to parroted criticism about a design you've worked on for hundreds of hours...from someone who has never heard or seen a SVS ...and/or doesn't even own a subwoofer

I agree some folks do hit you guys a little hard. But you guys hit back just as hard and sometimes you take the first shot, however subtle, with pre-emptive strikes. I don't blame you I suppose, but If I were you I wouldn't buy into it. It only turns the discussions volatile and then any good that could have come from them turns sour when everyone jumps sides.

These are discussion boards where we can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of products. It appears we can't always do that without someone jumping in and ruining the discourse by getting into arguments. It's too bad... Because the people that lose are the regular users who come here to gain knowledge. The "praise at all costs and slam at all cost" threads don't help anyone...

 

[David Judah]

You could add multiple subs to boost its overall output, but you can't do anything with a ported sub to lower its GD

With a low tuned ported sub, the GD is shifted out of the range where it would matter for most music,anyways.

 

[ling_w]

With a low tuned ported sub, the GD is shifted out of the range where it would matter for most music,anyways.

You need a port tuned to a very very low freq since first fundalmental of a piano's lowest key is 27hz (It wouldn't matter for instruments that does not have a fast attack like organs.)

 

[SVS-Ron]

ling_w (lwang right?) said:

"Isn't mocking someone who wanted all treble indirectly mocking all the guys here that wants their bass run HOT?"

If you think running a good subwoofer a few dBs over the mains when master levels are moderate, some how equates to playing LPs with ZERO bass and MAX treble... then you have a lot to learn about home theater, and are doing a disservice to hometheater enthusiasts by insinuating as much. Or maybe you are just making hit and run comments, and spoiling for a fight as is frequently the case from your keyboard?

Feel free to line up some more cheap shots ling_w and I'm sure the admin here will be happy to help you in your conduct vis a vis otherwise productive discussions regarding SVS products.

Ron

 

[MarkO]

Shrug those bashers off Tom. You guys make one hell of a woof. I for one was simply nitpicking on a small aspect of you're woofs performance to keep with this threads original question (opinion of course). The rest of its abilities was astonishing to say the least.

 

[Mark Leitch]

I think this thread illustrates why sub discussions here become pretty volatile. I find the REL sub to be very different from SVS in design and concept, and the hookup options of the REL provide a distinct advantage in certain scenarios. It is not a discussion of musicality as much as pure function. You can get close to this function with some external boxes and a little DIY, but the simplicity of the setup has great value as well.

m.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>That is why there are Vandy and Bag-End subs, both operating below its resonant freq. You could add multiple subs to boost its overall output, but you can't do anything with a ported sub to lower its GD.

 

[David Judah]

6-24 subs to reach a desired headroom goal in a medium to large room

Yikes! Those low Q sealed boxes aren't small to begin with.
DJ