1. Guest,
    If you need help getting to know Xenforo, please see our guide here. If you have feedback or questions, please post those here.
    Dismiss Notice

Superbit DVDs, Why Not use the highest DTS bitrate?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by ChrisA, Aug 24, 2001.

  1. ChrisA

    ChrisA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was just wondering that if the GOAL of superbit DVDs is to take maximum advantage of audio/Video, why not use DTS in the higher bitrate? It would be great if the only thing on a superbit was the higher bitrate DTS track and the rest going to superbit video. Nothing else should take bandwidth. Dolby Digital 5.1 is not a problem to include as long as it is not available on the fly. In other words, bandwidth is the weakest link. Whenever you have more than one track available on the fly, you are eating up bandwidth. That is why one can select either DD or DTS in the beginning and not be able to switch between the two while the movie is playing. I guess the problem could be storage space in the sense of providing full rate DTS 5.1, DD 5.1, and superbit video. I don't see a bandwidth prooblem with being able to do high quality video along with a full rate DTS track. In other words, since superbit tracks are only going to have one soundtrack available on the fly, why not make it DTS full rate? It should not be a bandwidth issue as far as I can tell. The superbit video should be able to be maxed out even with a full bitrate DTS track. So is storage space the weakest link in providing full rate DTS onn superbit DVDs? I thought since these DVDs were not stuffed full of crappy extras [​IMG] that there should be plenty of room for full rate DTS and superbit video. If storage space is the issue, then I vote for a DD 2.0 track with Full rate DTS. The target market is audio/videophiles, so full rate DTS should be implemented.
    ------------------
    Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
    [Edited last by ChrisA on August 24, 2001 at 08:15 AM]
     
  2. YANG

    YANG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 1999
    Messages:
    483
    Likes Received:
    2
    I am surprise about the bitrate they are using for DTS too,if the releases will not have those extra features which will give way to more disc space...?
     
  3. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 1998
    Messages:
    8,341
    Likes Received:
    1
    Real Name:
    Neil Joseph
    The original Fifth Element was done on a single layer using less than half the total bitrate of the new release and yet it looks so good (try stepping frame by frame). I don't understand why they could not use full bitrate dts if they are using a dual layer. It makes sense.
    orangeman
    ------------------
    Neil's H.T. Site
    (plus large selection of H.T.Links and movie images)
     
  4. Kevin P

    Kevin P Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 1999
    Messages:
    1,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    It could be related to the fact that the maximum TOTAL bitrate (bandwidth) on a DVD is 10 Mbps, regardless of disc capacity. A full rate DTS track will rob roughly 14% of that bandwidth. Additional soundtracks, subtitles, alternate angles, yadda yadda also use part of that 10 Mbps, if they exist, even if you're not actively using them.
    So if you have a DVD with a 1.4Mbps DTS soundtrack (the maximum bitrate), a 384kbps DD 5.1 soundtrack and a 192kbps DD 2.0 soundtrack, the maximum bandwidth for video is about 8 Mbps, taking overhead into account. Go to a 768kbps DTS track, and you get that much more for video (almost 9 Mbps).
    So, it's basically a compromise. Getting the absolute highest video bitrate means making some compromises in the audio bitrate, and vice versa.
    KJP
     
  5. PatrickM

    PatrickM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    1,140
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think a better question, at least for the Fifth Element in Superbit, is why it hasn't been announced with a DTS-ES soundtrack since the German R2 version contains such a soundtrack.
    If its supposed to be the best sound and picture it should contain a DTS-ES track
    Patrick
    ------------------
    If you live in Vancouver, B.C. or the surrounding areas, take a look at the Local Home Theater Forum Meets section for a Vancouver meet.
    My DVD Collection
     
  6. William Ward

    William Ward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2000
    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    1
    They should just make it Full-rate DTS with a dolby 2.0 track. Use the rest for video rate.
    These titles would sell better if they had full-rate DTS.
    ------------------
    William
    Go Bucs!!
    MyDVDs
     
  7. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2001
    Messages:
    3,219
    Likes Received:
    0
    What's the rationale for including a 192 kbs Dolby Surround 2.0 track? Won't downmixing from DD5.1/DD4.0 suffice?
    ------------------
     
  8. ChrisA

    ChrisA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    0
    Additional soundtracks, subtitles, alternate angles, yadda yadda also use part of that 10 Mbps, if they exist, even if you're not actively using them.
    That is exactly what superbit DVDs should not do: waste bandwidth on extra languages, commentary, etc...
    Remember, it makes a difference if the track is available 'on the fly' vs. not 'on the fly'. Having more soundtracks, but not having them switchable on the fly, doesn't eat up bandwidth. One simply has to give up the luxury of being able to switch audio tracks while the DVD is playing. I think it is important to expand upon "not actively using them". Sure there are many tracks available on the fly which are not all used at the same time, but are eating up bandwidth. Nontheless, it can be arranged in the DVD setup so that ONE AUDIO TRACK ONLY is taking up bandwidth. Not all tracks present on the DVD have to play simultaneously. This is mearly up to the DVD 'engineer'.
    Remember "SEVEN" Included a 2.0 24/96 PCM track!!! This was iin conjunction to DTS, DD! Certainly, one chose in the setup which of those they would like to hear. Not all of them are running simultaneosly even though we are listening to just one.
    The goal of a supperbit DVD is to maximize audio and video quality. ONE audio track and ONE video track should be playing at any one time.
    So if you have a DVD with a 1.4Mbps DTS soundtrack (the maximum bitrate), a 384kbps DD 5.1 soundtrack and a 192kbps DD 2.0 soundtrack, the maximum bandwidth for video is about 8 Mbps, taking overhead into account. Go to a 768kbps DTS track, and you get that much more for video (almost 9 Mbps).
    Asuperbit DVD should have 8.6 Mbps for video and 1.4 for DTS Audio. The extra 768 Kbps for audio should in no way impact the video. A superbit DVD is designed for max audio and picture quality, and in my opinion, this is really a farce to say they are improving the audio. 'half-rate DTS' is already on stadard DVD's. There is nothing special about 'half-rate' DTS.
    They should just make it Full-rate DTS with a dolby 2.0 track. Use the rest for video rate. These titles would sell better if they had full-rate DTS.
    I wholeheartedly concur. 8.6 Mbps Video and 1.4 DTS audio.
    Only one audio and one video track taking up bandwidth is the way to go. The truth is that a DD 5.1 and other tracks can be included, but they can't just be made available 'on-the-fly'. It would be just a matter of storage space.
    ------------------
    Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
     
  9. ChrisA

    ChrisA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    0
  10. Rod Martin

    Rod Martin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Rod
    There are times where I'm away from the forum for a couple weeks or more at a time. I missed all this "SuperBit DVD" stuff. With the search engine mostly on the fritz, can someone point me to a link explaining what Superbit is and what it's for?
    Thanks!
     
  11. Scott_MacD

    Scott_MacD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2001
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  12. Antonio_M

    Antonio_M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please look at it this way..you cannot complain, be aware that Desperado and Fifth Element are encoded in 384kbps Dolby Digital and the Superbits are DTS 754kbps each!!!
    C'mon man!
    To what extent are we going to be FULLY satisfied?
    I mean Jesus, look at Saving Private Ryan, it's grossly LOUD! I don't want it at 1509kbps! I am not nuts!
    Besides, it's all about the job that was done on specific titles, not about the more kbps the better.
     
  13. Nick_Gray

    Nick_Gray Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2001
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  14. ChrisA

    ChrisA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is my understanding that one can have many different soundtracks that do not have to be used on-the-fly. If a soundtrack is not made switchable on-the-fly, it does not have to eat up bandwidth. It is perfectly fine to design DVD playback so that there is only one soundtrack eating up bandwidth at a time. This simply means that one selects the soundtrack they desire in the beginning, and that soundtrack is used throughout the film. This is not a problem. How many of us actually switch audio tracks on the fly anyway? Some people, I hear, actually like to listen to the commentary tracks on the fly. I don't watch many commentaries anyway, let alone worry about switching between commentary and other soundtracks while watching a movie. While certainly there are many discs designed with many soundtracks all playing at the same time (even though we only listen to one at a time), the DVD 'engineer' can design the DVD so that only one track plays at a time.
    Superbit DVDs could contain various soundtracks, if for some reason they actually wanted to, and be designed so that only one is being used at a time. That is how superbits should be designed since they are about achieveing the highest quality audio and video. Again, saying superbit DVDs have the best audio quality is not true unless they are using 'full-rate' DTS. Providing 'half-rate' DTS is something that standard DVDs have. In fact, as was shown here before, there are quite a few standard DVDs with 'full-rate' DTS.
    A superbit DVD can use full-rate DTS and the maximum useful video rate. There is no reason not to use high rate DTS for a SUPERBIT DVD.
    Does anyone know where to write email or letters to?
    Sincerely,
    Chris
    ------------------
    Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
     
  15. Pete Calderwood

    Pete Calderwood Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    The primary problem with "Superbit" DVDs is that due to DVD's peak bitrate limitations, a sacrifice will have to be made in video or audio. If full bitrate DTS is used, the peak level video bitrate drops by another 768kbps, making artifacts more likely to occur on certain hard to compress scenes like explosions. For this reason, Sony chose to go with the already excellent half-bitrate DTS and save the extra bits for hard to compress scenes. FYI, the major difference between DTS half and full is simply that DTS half starts rolling off frequencies at 15khz, eventually steeply dropping off at 19khz, while full bitrate DTS has full response up to 22khz. If anyone wants to hear what kind of effect such a rolloff would have on music, email me at ruinedx@hotmail.com and I can send you a clip of something with and without the rolloff applied, so you can decide for yourself if it is worth getting concerned over half bitrate DTS.
    ------------------
    Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
    Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
     
  16. Jeff

    Jeff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1997
    Messages:
    950
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Pete. Using full bit rate would be a mistake. The video would really suffer. In fact, I think Dolby Digital 5.1 should have been dropped. Having both DD and DTS is pretty much going to insure that the original Fifth Element will look better, although I hope I'm wrong.
    BTW, can anyone here really tell a difference between full and half bit rate DTS? Look at Saving Private Ryan. It's the best sounding DTS disc and it's half bit rate. Dances with Wolves DTS is MARGINALLY better sounding than the DD version and it's full bit rate.
    Jeff
     
  17. Pete Calderwood

    Pete Calderwood Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually will have to disagree with you there on DWW [​IMG]
    Dances With Wolves DTS uses (on my scale) a far superior audio master to the DD version, with higher fidelity and much better bass, reguardless of compression codec differences. Thedigitalbits.com has a good overview of the quite obvious audible differences between the two. This is due to DTS personally doing the transfer for the DWW since it was the first big-studio DTS DVD and they wanted it to be excellent - they went to London and did an excellent transfer using Studer 20bit converters off a pristine 70mm magnetic film element of DWW.
    ------------------
    Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
    Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
     
  18. Pete Calderwood

    Pete Calderwood Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2001
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    BTW, I made an error in my previous post, I meant full response up to 24khz.
    ------------------
    Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
    Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
     
  19. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2001
    Messages:
    3,219
    Likes Received:
    0
    There's something some of you are forgetting-- Assuming a constant 10 Mbs bitrate (rather unrealistic) and 8.5 GB total disc capacity (dual layer, single sided)...
    Or, to use rather more precise values:
    4169920 sectors* 2048 bytes/sector= 8144.125 MB
    8144.125 MB*8 bits per byte=65153 Megabits
    65153/10.08 Mb per sec= 6464 sec
    6464/60 = ~107 minutes.
    Length of Fifth Element: 126 Minutes...
    BTW: The absolute maximum capacity of a DVD9 is 8539996160 bytes. Thus, if one assumes that a GB is a thousand million bytes (rather than 2^30) one gets the more conventional 8.5 GB... I am not sure if the 10.08 value refers to 10.08 * 2^20 bytes or 10.8 million bytes...
    ------------------
     
  20. David-alexander

    David-alexander Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2001
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    0
    see it the other way around:
    it can be done (DTS full rate, dolby 5.1 and 2.0): THIN RED LINE, while having a stunning picture ( no extras, just 2 subtitles).
    or DVD 14 could have been used.
    the other way around is this: maybe DTS asked them to stick with the 1/2 DTS version since this the once that other studios use for their dual releases or single releases, in order to not cause a doubt in the mind of the public as far as the quality and justification of a 1/2 dts is concerned.
    See my points ? The controversy of the 1/2 dts vs dolby is already high enough and thus dts wants to stick to its policy (a compromised policy to be able to be more and more featured on dvd releases) of the 1/2 dts....
    just an idea....
     

Share This Page