Subjective listening evaluation and/or comparison: VMPS Larger to SVS PB-2 Plus (1 Viewer)

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Are you comfortable matching up your PB1-ISD with the STF-3?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Hell, send them both to me. I have no intentions of ever buying subs from either company!

 

[Edward J M]

Curtis:

All is well in upstate, New York. I'm sure the weather is colder and snowier here than in sunny CA. I wouldn't have it any other way, though.

I pulled out of the last "company sanctioned" comparo due to some of the issues we've been discussing. No matter how scientific and impartial the set-up, there would still be issues, questions, and differences of opinion. Kind of takes the fun right out of it. :frowning:

I'm with Mike on this one. If I ever get around to reviewing and testing some competitive subs, I'll do it on my own and post the results. At most I would privately bounce the protocols and methodologies off some peers, but I would not actively seek a public consensus, nor would I feel obligated to. If that results in a few detractors and naysayers, that's OK - you can't please everyone all of the time. Regardless of the outcome, I would imagine most would view it as a genuine attempt to inject some objectivity into what has been a very subjective debate.

Ed you know as well as I do that more drivers does not mean lower distortion. Look at mutiple driver speakers for an example.Also there is an interesting thread over at AVS about distortion levels of a single driver Adire Sadhara vs the quad driver B4Plus.

If we are discussing the same subwoofer, it does mean lower distortion. Two stacked VTF-3's will exhibit roughly half the distortion of a single VTF-3 at the same sound pressure level, all other things being equal.

The problem with the Sadhara and "Big Four Plus" THD data is that it was generated by different testers, in different environments, with different equipment, and different methodologies.

I can tell you from my limited experience with testing rigs that THD can be introduced into the signal by many things other than the subwoofer itself. The software and hardware gain settings, the mic, and the inherent limitations of the sound card, just to name a few. Overload (even by a frog's hair) any one gain stage or piece of equipment, and harmonics start to climb very quickly.

If anyone really wanted to legitimately compare the distortion products of the Sadhara and the B4-Plus, it would have to be under identical test conditions with the same measurement rig.

The nice thing about shoot-outs using the same test rig is that any anomalies or distortion introduced by the test rig will be the same for both subs and will cease to be a variable. The reviewer doesn't necessarily need "absolute" data; he needs to precisely measure the relative differences between the two products.

This concept can be likened to a scale that reads 180 pounds when a 165 pound man steps on it. The scale is inaccurate in that it does not reflect his actual weight. But if the man loses 6.5 pounds, the scale reads 173.5 pounds, indicating it is precise regardless of its inherent inaccuracy with respect to an absolute standard.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Mike Sloan]

Also there is an interesting thread over at AVS about distortion levels of a single driver Adire Sadhara vs the quad driver B4Plus.

That actually was a joke review...measuring only at 100dB. The point you are making is what...are you refering to XBL^2 motor topology and related distortion figures? So we have a single driver sub producing slightly less distortion numbers at a 100dB output level than a much larger sub using 4 drivers.I am even more impressed with the B4 and it's plus drivers...Bravo SVS! The B4 would crush the Sadhara and the fact you would pull some miniscule worthless piece of data out of that goofy review is suspect. Let's compare distortin figures between the two at 25hz and 120dB.

Curtis how well do you know cschang?

 

[CurtisSC]

cschang...that is me!

You mean the Amercian built pb-1isd against chinese built stf-3?

Do you think you could build your subs in China for a lessor cost and past the savings to customers? Are you saying you offer more for $600 than Hsu? Would you sacrafice sound quality for an USA assembled subwoofer? Are you saying the STF-3 should cost even less and still compete with or best the PB1-ISD? Built in America is a great idea and marketing piece, but does not mean anything when it comes to SPL, FR, distortion, or sound quality. I know you have your reason for keeping assembly in the USA, and I commend you for it, but it doesn't make the subs sound better.

As for that Sadhara thread...some of it is a bit suspect. But the point is that 4 drivers may not mean lower distortion at lower levels like Ed stated. But Ed is right, not the same testing environment. It would be another interesting test to pick a given output level and measure distortion.

Like always with this debate...we will go around in circles. I am looking forward to what Mike writes, and in the future what Paul Carleton of HTS is able to facilitate.

And I'm all for sending Brian subs and let him test!

 

[Mike Sloan]

Built in America is a great idea and marketing piece, but does not mean anything when it comes to SPL, FR, distortion, or sound quality.

It means something to me!
I think it's called "PATRIOTISM"

Hey Curtis...I think they have some great bargains in Tehran...what do you think...or is China more palitable? Don't be so naive to think HSU is passing it allllll on to you and me. Have you looked inside your VTF-3. The "cardboard" tube they used on the port they want you to block isn't all that impressive, nor was the hum and popping problem in the VTF-3 amp (because of a poor grounding scheme in the amp design-RCA ground to the ground point for CM4 and CM5). So I am confident that they arn't passing allllll the savings on to me and you. Oh, by the way....did you modify your VTF-3 to fix the problem...because it was prevalent on every unit...until I made a spectacle of myself on every forum I could find.

 

[CurtisSC]

I think it's called "PATRIOTISM"

And I think it is great. But you can be a great patriot and own non-USA made products, just like you probably do. It is called competition, and one of the things that makes this country great. Like Tom said, they have to work on design ingenuity to keep up. Without the competition, maybe they would not have such a good product. And you won't say "My sub may not sound as good, but it is made in the USA". I would not expect anyone to say that, I'd expect people to get the best their American dollar could get.

Speaking about the Middle East and Asia. Do you know that many call centers are moving or have moved their operations to India? Just something I know because my ex was in that business. It is called the global economy, and it is not going away.

Buying products made in foreign countries benefit us Americans.

And by the way, I was born and raised here, just like the next guy. I do have relatives in China(and other parts of the world) and have talked to them about some of the things they have had to endure, and it makes me appreciate the lives and choices we have here.

Mike...you edited after I finished. Ofcourse Hsu is not passing all the savings. They are a business, but it is safe to say that they are passing some, or possibly providing a better product. But in the same tone, don't think that SVS is providing a better product or service because it is assembled in the USA. Do you think SVS would make more money if they could?

I do not have a humming problem with my VTF-3. I do hear a small pop/click when I turn the light off in my bedroom, but I heard that on the 20-39PC+ as well. The electricity is crappy in my house.

 

[Michael R Price]

I think Adire is being a little agressive with that "show down" thing... if those numbers are valid, it still means much less than they would like us to think. I am certainly impressed by the Sadharas performance though, if those are indeed anechoic 1-meter measurements.

I wonder how many of us can hear 2% THD at 40Hz.

 

[Heath_E]

Answer: "If we build our products in China, we can pass the saving on to the customer".

Question: What is a statement that has never been uttered in a corporate board room?

Sorry guys, I've been watching too much Jeopardy lately.

It is simply naive to think that a company that has their products assembled overseas, is doing so for the benefit of the customer, no disrespect intended. I am the guy who says, "Wow, both products are so similar that any miniscule differences are probably purely subjective, I'm going to go with the one built here in America." But that's just me.

 

[CurtisSC]

Wow, both products are so similar that any miniscule differences are probably purely subjective, I'm going to go with the one built here in America.

Totally understood. But you do not know if they are that close until you hear them. Until that happens, it is all marketing.

 

[Heath_E]

Totally understood. But you do not know if they are that close until you hear them. Until that happens, it is all marketing.

I agree. That was really just a blanket statement and not implying that any of the products mentioned in this thread are that similar, or dissimilar. I'll leave that part of the discussion to you subwoofer experts.

 

[Mike Sloan]

And you won't say "My sub may not sound as good, but it is made in the USA

I agree! So you are saying the HSU product sounds better than the comparable SVS product....I am not there yet...we'll have to wait and see. My own personal comparisons between the VTF-3 and the SVS 20-39PC+ did not reveal as strong of a subjective impression as you seem to be conveying. I thought they sounded very similar with the 500W bash amp appearing more robust. I have always felt the VTF-3 would benefit from more wattage....and now it does with the MK2.

 

[Mike Sloan]

That's a good one!

 

[steve nn]

I myself would feel very comfortable with a review by Mike Sloan. We have shot mails back and forth for the last two or three years periodically. Knowing how Mike was for the longest time about what he ran>(HSU) I think it would be quite interesting. Mike correct me if I'm wrong but I think you started to change your opinion on HSU versus SVS when you decided to buy a SVS for a relative?? At least that is when I started to notice your respect for SVS start to form. In saying this I'm not implying you lost any respect for HSU either. Anyway I remember the days when it was Mike with the dual HSU's and me with the dual Velo's. Seems like not a day went by with out one of us getting into some kind of a tiff with a SVS enthusiasts Dang they sure can talk it up when it comes to their sub/subs. I'll be waiting for your review Mike and I guess I should inform you that a fourth 25-31CS+ is in the works Na Na Na hee hee hee....

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That actually was a joke review>>
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Couldn't agree more Mike. Common sub sense needs to be applied here.

 

[CurtisSC]

Mike

With music, the differences were audible, especially doing the A/B thing. One of the best musical bass CDs I have is the proppellerheads...some good deep bass with quick transitions....that CD has notciable differences. With HT, less noticeable. It could be that my room is smaller than yours, and therefore that extra wattage didn't come into play. Like I said before though...moving the subs around was a pain....the SVS was easier because it was not quite as heavy and I could roll it on its base.

Did you post your subjective thoughts on your comparison anywhere? I would like to read it, even if it doesn't coincide with my thoughts.

 

[WayneO]

I find it amusing that every other thread that mentions SVS or Hsu gets hijacked into something else. With that said, I got my PB2+ today and will post some quick thoughts for the few hours I've been toying with it. Let me also say I have the same PC+ as you Robert, with a approximate 3000^3ft space for the sub to fill since my living and dining room is connected in an L-shap. My system is calibrated at 75db(RS SPL meter) for all speakers. PB2+ at 20hz tune. Here's a pic before the PB2+ got there, it's in the same spot now.



I faced it out with ports against the wall, ran the "tapping glass" scene at reference level(0db) and registered 112db on the RS meter from my seating postition 12ft. away. Moved it to the right wall in front of the window cause I noticed the magnets were affecting my RPTV. Played the scene again and only hit 109db. So I took off the baseplate and faced it drivers forward(now they'd be on the other side of the enclosure away from the TV) and had enough room to keep the RPTV from being affected, ports up. I don't have a measurement for the PC+. Then I put on LOTR:FOTR EE to a scene where I bottomed the PC+ at -4db under reference. Clean at -2,0 and then +2db! , I was scared my house would rattle to death, so I didn't go higher. I'll post some additional thoughts later, when I get everything finalized if your interested. But the increased headroom as AMAZING over the PC+, which is what I wanted and you seem to want. You won't be disappointed! Sound seems similar to the PC+, but haven't really sat and "listened" to it. Well I'm off to play........

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Curtis,

I disagree with you on this topic. With 9 million Americans laid off since sep/2001...I personally don't see laying off more and exporting more jobs as a *great thing for America*. I just watched as our local elections voted down almost every single issue regarding Police, drug task forces, school, aid programs to the needy, park/recreational issues, ect. And when they interviewed folks outside the polls...the reasons they gave were almost always based around...

"...since I lost my job/since my wife/husband lost their job..." Or,..."we are just too worried about our jobs right now..."

So I think the effect of exporting America is immediate and a reduction in Police protection, drug task forces, educational monies ,ect can't be considered as something positive for ANY community.

I could go on and on and offer many other examples of why I feel the way I do...but this isn't the forum for that. I don't expect everyone to agree with me...and that is OK.

If someone feels *Made in America* means something to them...cool. If not...fine. Either way they have quality options to choose from.


Tom V.
SVS

 

[Mike Sloan]

The review should be somewhere in the dank recesses of the HT forum archive...I'll see if I can dredge it up.

Steve...are you really getting a 4th....man that will be bass nirvana. You are correct...my advocacy towards SVS began when I purchased the 25-31PC+ for my Brother...and subsequent purchases for friends, and family. I was intrigued by the Tube design and preferred the powered tube over the passive...probably why I steered away from the HSU tubes. The SVS struck me as being very clean without any of the dreaded overhang. I was actually thinking about getting another VTF-3...but they have changed the look and it wouldn't work for me. If the PB2-Plus hangs with (2) VTF-3's...I may be utilizing Ebay and making the switch...we'll see!!!!! I will try to see if I can hear what Curtis heard in his comparisons. Musicality is very important...so it should be fun. If I go with the PB2-Plus...I will get 2...that way I can still run with the BIG DOGS!:b

 

[steve nn]

If I go with the PB2+...I will get two...That way I can still run with the big dogs:b
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Now that sounds like the Mike I know. (The Tim Allen approach)...

 

[CurtisSC]

Tom,

The loss of jobs in America...and the economy as a whole is more of a complex set of issues than American companies manufacturing overseas.

Local government money issues have more to do with how they manage money rather than loss of jobs. My local school district has been over budget five straight years, always dipping into reserves, not they have no reserves and have to cut back. You could not run SVS that way.

My company laid off over 100 people in the last two years...those jobs did not go overseas.

Anyways, I would be glad to discuss this with you via PM's. The economy will turn around, it is a cycle.