Studio's or Vienna's? (1 Viewer)

[Russell _T]

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=82704
Peka,
Here is another review. There are others scattered around.
Good Luck,

 

[Peka J]

Russell,
One thing I was wondering about the Rockets was how the metal tweeter compares to the tweeter in the Divas. One thing that really interested me in the Divas was the silk dome tweeter, which is the same type used in the Viennas. I haven't been too impressed with metal tweeters in some other speakers. For example, I know many people love Paradigm, but I heard the Studios in a couple of dealers and was unimpressed. I'm not saying they were bad, but for my very novice ears they just didn't get me excited. I was thinking that maybe I just like the silk dome tweeter sound better (I realize that there are a thousand other variables between different speakers, but this is an important one). Could you compare the tweeter sound in the Rockets to the Divas or generally how they compare to other silk dome and metal tweeters? Thanks alot.

 

[Matt Jesty]

Given that sonic memory is short, if you have a good relationship with the guy at the shop who sells Viennas, buy the rockets and take them to his store (after hours) along with a friend and do some blind tests.....

 

[Mark Austin]

Given that sonic memory is short, if you have a good relationship with the guy at the shop who sells Viennas, buy the rockets and take them to his store (after hours) along with a friend and do some blind tests.....

Just curious about what the relavance of the blind tests would be, and what would he hope to gain from them?

 

[Mal P]

G'day Mark,

I assume the same reason for all blinds tests, to detect whether one can hear a difference between the two items, and if not, then choose the one that's cheaper, or looks better or has the features you'd prefer.

Cheers,
Mal

 

[Mark Austin]

G'day Mal,

Is there something that would lead us to think they would/should sound similar? If he did do a blind test in the matter of several minutes, and was unable to detemine a difference, would that be sufficient evidence to prove to the purchaser that there was no difference between the two, and that he should make his purchasing decision based on those results? I would suggest not. What I have found interesting in my brief study of blind testing is that there is no industry besides the medical industry, which blind testing was designed for, that uses this type of testing in such a manner. In fact, THEY don't even use it in that manner. I would suggest that blind testing the speakers could give one a false understanding of what differences actually exist. And, I am speaking of typical blind testing methodology. I'm not against blind listening, as in listening to both speakers blind, and discerning which one you prefer. But I do think "blind testing" in which the subject is trying to identify the reference from two examples is a gross misrepresentation of what blind testing can tell us.

 

[Scott Oliver]

Here, here! Go Mark!

I agree. Plus why would any sane shopowner allow you to bring in speakers that cost a fraction of his, use up his time, and after that he is not even guaranteed a sale. And since the Rockets cost a fraction of the Vienna's the consumer would probably be looking for the slightest of reasons to go with the Rockets and pocket the thousand or so saved.

 

[Paul_Scott]

Hi,
been lurking here for over a year, but this thread compelled me to register finally.
Its funny to read Peka's post, because his experience is almost an exact mirror of mine.
i was at a Tweeters in Dallas, just killing time looking at speakers since i was hoping to upgrade sometime in the near future. I was sure i was going to go with Paradigms since i live near the border and can get a good deal if i get them in Canada.
i was figuring a budget of about $1500 total for the 5 speakers, so thats what i was concentrating on in Tweeters.
the first room they showed me had the Mirage set-up. Then i think i heard the Klipsch.
to me, while i could appreciate the fidelity of the sound, the experience just wasn't all that impressive.
yes, the soundtracks played loud without distortion, and yes, there were the appropriate sounds coming from the appropriate speakers, but there was something lacking to me.
i've never been much of an audiophile and that fact was driven home as i demo'd these pieces of furniture that cost several thousand dollars but just left me cold.
i was always much more concerned with the video portion of my HT . i figured the aural experience just doesn't resonate with some people, and i was one of 'em.
then i wandered around and ended up in the room with the Viennas.
i can't remember if the system i heard was the Beethovens or the Mozarts (had a $2500 price tag for the two fronts, so i think it was the Mozarts), but immediately i'd felt like i'd found aural nirvana.
There was definitely a difference between these and all the other speakers i had heard (and sadly the paradigms too).
the price tag was steep, but i felt like the price here was a benchmark.
if these speakers were $2500, then the $1500 systems i heard seemed very over priced.
there was just such a gulf of difference between them.
i think the quality that stood out most to me was the imaging.
not before or since have i had the sensation of the very dimensions of the room actually changing to accommodate the presence of the individual sounds.
i'm not an audiophile, so i can't describe the experience appropriately. it's cliched to say, but it really was 'magical'.

Russell, i've followed your Rocket posts over on the other forums, and i have to say, when you start mentioning these two lines in the same post, you've really got my attention.
i second Peka's question about the tweeter differences and would also like to ask if you think the 550's , and Diva's for that matter, also compare favorably to the Viennas.
I'd seriously consider getting in on Some Divas before they're gone, but I'm really lusting after that Rocket center. The c3 sounds like it just doesn't compare.
i think as soon as i can resolve the issue of which left and rights to go with, i'm probably going to place an order.
the 550's i can swing now. it'll be tight, but i think i can do it.
if there is just a quantum difference between those and the 750's, i'll probably have to put this off for another couple of months.

very eager to hear your thoughts.

(sorry this was so long winded)

 

[Russell _T]

Guys,
Please bear with me a little longer. I have a request in to the head engineer for the Rockets for an accurate description of the Vifa tweeter. It is not a metal tweeter, but some kind of hybrid. Before I run off at the mouth, I want to make sure you get the correct info. Hopefully Dick will send it in plain English so we can all understand it a little better. I can tell you this much however, there is NO ringing in the upper registers associated with speakers like B&W and Paradigm. I also have the Divas with their silk dome tweeter. I specifically went looking for fabric dome tweeter when I was looking for speakers last year, and as much as I love the sound of the Divas, the Rocket tweeter really lends another dimension to the sound. It is perhaps a little more forward. Mark Schifter describes it as "weight" I understand what he is saying. To me it's more like "presence."
I will get back to you with more later.
Thanks,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

People around here think that price means quaity. So everyone is going to say the Vienna's except me. How do you have control over QA when you don't build your own drivers.

Don,

Actually, price does mean quality with Vienna. They are even a relative bargain by my ears. You do have a valid point, price does not always equal sonic quality although it usually means better build quality.

Me. I like to think outside of the box as a strategy consultant. I use Magneplanars (1.6Qrs) because I love the natural way they sound with tube electronics.

In any event, I enthusiastically recommend the Viennas over the also excellent Studio 100s. And they look stunning!

Now about the drivers: this is a non-issue. Many top-flight high end companies do not build their own drivers, they "spec" them out in their engineering R&D labs and have the driver companies like Vifa and Scanspeak do the hardware for them. The more exacting the standards/tolerances, the better the results and the higher the price of the driver. But they sound just like the engineer wanted. It is the design that matters, no the actual production.

 

[Matt Jesty]

The Wine enthusiasts of the world play "put-up-or-shut-up" all the time with blind tests why should audio enthusiasts be afraid to do so?
I love listening to "e-marketers" post as the "friendly guy next door" regarding products that you have to buy without A/B-ing them vs the speakers that they are "better than" that cost twice as much!
I have said it before and I'll say it again Bose sells some of their product 'FACTORY DIRECT" ONLY , and we all know why that is don't we ! But like P.T. Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute" andwhen we do blind tests and people realize that those "factory direct" to you speakers "saving you 75%" aren't even close to the Vienna's we just say "how many days into their return policy are you?"

 

[Paul_Scott]

Matt,
i assume you're talking about the rockets .
well, i'm considering them, and yes it isn't based on actual listening (which i admit sounds more than a little foolish).
so why would i do it?

the last time i listened to a bunch of people on forums go ga-ga over some HT gear, it was the LT150 over on AVS.
i read with enthusiasm when the one lone proponent gushed on and on about what a phenomonal deal it was when it was around $5K.
then the price started to drop to around 3K and more people started to get it and concurred.
when it hit $1,700 i decided this was it and rolled the dice.
This was even knowing i was prone to the DLP rainbows this unit would surely have.
well, a year later, i can't thank those enthusiastic yahoos enoughs.
i've been following threads on the diva swans for a while.
beyond having gotten stellar reviews from other review sites,
i don't believe that "e-tailer marketeers" could have keep up the interest in these to the exent it is.
now the same company is releasing another speaker, with great specs ,immpecable credentials, and similar good word of mouth.

i'm sold.
it's just a question now of whats going to fit my budget and needs.

and if, by some chance they aren't all they're cracked up to be, they're going back and i'll take everything in the future with a grain of salt.

BTW- no speakers stores in my area let you audition their wares in your home for 30 days. listening to them in a store setting seems to be of limited value to me, because i have a hard room to get good sound in.
if i lose $300 on shipping by returning them, at least i'll know for sure they won't work for me.

 

[Matt Jesty]

I recently had a customer who at my advice had purchased a model and brand of speaker that I don't carry (he was leaning that way anyhow) - based on the advice of an "expert" friend who told him that they sounded better than a pair of another brand that cost $500/pr more...
At around 9:30pm I had him and his friend bring them in and his friend quietly WATCHED AS I CAREFULLY SET-UP A BLIND A/B comparison not with the speakers costing $500 more but with a pair from the same brand that cost $100 less (closer comparison)..as luck would have it he picked the brand that I carried and after saying that they were clearly better to his ears then asked which ones he'd picked ...When I told him he was somewhat upset cause he thought he was going to be shelling out another $500 ...He was plesantly surprised...I do these dcemo's 'cause I find it impossible to overcome what people WANT to believe and I have nothing to loose...To date he hase spent $6,200 dollars with me and his friend has spent @ $1,900.....I just think that A/B comparisons through IDENTICAL gear is an absolute neccesity and scientificly these tests should be blind....
BY the way I ofter 60 day return policy (no explanation or restocking fee) and an interesting trade in plan!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The Wine enthusiasts of the world play "put-up-or-shut-up" all the time with blind tests why should audio enthusiasts be afraid to do so?

Well Matt, it just is not the same as a taste test. Blind tests are extraordinarily difficult to conduct without bias creeping in at some stage. Also, there are many factors such as supporting system, resolution of that system, amplifier to speaker load, music selection, listener fatigue, listener experience level...to name a few. Nevertheless, a number of audiophiles do blind tests with success. It is not a matter of being afraid as much the complexity challenge of creating a neutral test.
The best thing you can do as a consumer is go to an independent dealer and borrow the equipment for a few days and listen to how it sounds in your particular rig. All good dealers will allow you to do this.
I buy all my equipment this way. My dealer at Sound and Cinema in Atlanta is very generous about this and offers multiple ideas per visit.
Also, remember we good audiophiles don't care how much you spend (although if you review high end stuff we do require high resolution systems for better accuracy) on your system. We just know that many brands you never hear of at all price points can sound better than equipment like Bose, Monster Cable, etc.

 

[Matt Jesty]

We good audiophiles also know that "exclusive and rare" doesn't neccesarily mean better....Nor does "widely available" mean "bad"..

 

[Mark Austin]

Matt,

I just think that A/B comparisons through IDENTICAL gear is an absolute neccesity and scientificly these tests should be blind....

The problem is, there's nothing scientific about your so called tests. To me, through your other posts it sounds like you are testing for a preference, which is something true blind testing cannot do. It's taking the text out of context. If you were testing to determine whether there was a difference between the two, then you could possibly discuss scientific.

 

[Ed Four]

I think most of us agree that listening pleasure has definite links to mental circumstances. Because of that, I see no problem with what Matt is saying. Whether it be location or type of speaker, a lot of people don't have a chance to audition in the home. From the satisfied purchaser's standpoint what's wrong with doing a blind test and buying the speaker that sounded better to you. That way when you get it home and set them up you won't say "Maybe I should have picked those other ones." Instead you can hook them up and enjoy them without reservation since you know that you are listening to what you liked. If that leaves one mentally satisfied with a purchase, good for them. I feel a great deal of upgrades are only results of one second-guessing themself.

 

[SkiingNinja]

I have a request in to the head engineer for the Rockets for an accurate description of the Vifa tweeter.

It's a viscous-damped fabric diaphragm.


I hope that helps.


Sean

 

[Russell _T]

I posted on that tweeter info somewhere, but it must have been the wrong thread. :b I've been home this afternoon all by my lonesome, and taking advantage by cranking up the Dead to max SPL on the Rockets, all 5 channels firing full bore, plus the VTF-3 . It doesn't get any better than that.