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Star Trek: Into Darkness (Spoilers Discussion and Review)

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Dave Scarpa, May 15, 2013.

  1. Dave Scarpa

    Dave Scarpa Producer

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    Did'nt see a topic to discuss the film with Spoilers

    Saw the Fan Preview in Imax and 3D tonight.

    I was'nt the hugest fan of what JJ Abrams did to Trek in his first film, but it took his second installment to cement that I don't like his take on Star Trek. Like the first its all flash and no substance or feeling. His characters bear resemblance in name only to classic TOS characters but they don't inherit the same space, in fact in JJ's alt-Trek Kirk is a Douce, Spock is practically Homicidal, the only characters that come out of this film Portrayed well is Karl Urban's Bones MCcoy, and Simon Pegg's Scotty. Kirk from the opening seenis portrayed still as a wild party boy and rebel. Spock Flutuates from decrying Starfleet's revenge motives to laying a virtual ass whooping on the baddie.

    And Let's talk about the Plot and Said Baddie John" You Knew he was Khan" Harrison. Why did it have to be Khan, JJ Started on the right foot making the baddies Starfleet's Secret Section 31. Harrison could have had any motive giving to him for wanting to get bad at Admiral Marcus, but no, because JJ can't create a plot of his own, why not make an alt-verse Wrath of Khan? So the good Admiral just happens to come across Khan and His crew and he enlists Khan, a man 300 years out date to help him develop advanced weaponry and ships..??? Huh, thats like asking a Roman to help you design the cell Phone. Several Action Set pieces ensue until we get the inevitable ending that Apes the classic Trek 2 ending, except guess what it's reversed so that it's Kirk that sacrifices his Crew and Spock gets to emote the infamous Khan Bello for some inane erase. That is until a Deux ending that anyone could see coming from a mile away, had a Tribble waking up at just the right time. And why was everyone so Gung ho on spock Taking Khan alive when even McCoy realized he had 72 of the little buggers on his Ship anyhow.

    JJ If I want to Watch Khan done Right I'll watch the original, I have about 42 times already I'd like to see some originality.. And I like how they can pull out Old Spock as a crutch now just because New Spock is too stupid to work it out himself, so he can just dial up old Spock so he can object..but what the Heck give him the Answer anyhow.

    And where is the Grand utopia of Earth, when pock and Khan fought on that vehicle there was enough toxic emissions coming off of it to create a global meltdown. And what is with those god awful Hats....

    I Invite eeryone to go back and watch the original Khan from Spock's Death thru to his Funeral scene and shoot down to the genesis planet and see how Real Trek Moves you, right down to playing Amazing Grace for Spock as he in Death finds his humanity.

    And then go watch JJ's version.
     
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  2. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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    Dave, thank you for confirming what my thoughts are about these movies called "Star Trek."
     
  3. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Maybe ST IV will be re-done as "come back and save the Rhesus Monkey".
     
  4. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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    LOL. While they're doing that, they could also rehash part of the plot of The Andromeda Strain (which used Rhesus monkeys as experimental animals).
     
  5. Dave Scarpa

    Dave Scarpa Producer

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    Abrams Direction isn't terrible, but his insistance on using the same writing team is my main problem with the new films, they can't write a decent screenplay to save their lives. The Direction is fine, the cast is fine, but this insistance on not writing new stories but doing alt-verse stories is what is my main gripe, if JJ was going to reboot Star Trek he should have just done that, there was no need for this Alt Timeline we saw in the first film, Old Spock could have been used as a framing device to go back to the time the crew first got together and it would have been fine. No changing the timelines, no two spocks, none of it.
    Which would have resulted in No Wrath of Khan Homage. Tell original stories with the new cast is all most fans are asking for.
     
  6. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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    Yes, and don't change the characters so damn much that they wind up being significantly different characters.
     
  7. mattCR

    mattCR Executive Producer
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    You know what, I could deal with them being wildly different characters as long as it's forward story, not back story that is altered.. and even if that was not done, I could still deal with it if the storyline was really good.

    I have said this repeatedly in the other thread, but there are too many wildly stupid things that happen in the second act, both by characters and script and it just doesn't work. A minor litany in spoilers:

    Kahn, the super-genius retreats to Kronos, which enables his chief opposition in Marcus to setup the exact situation that helps him. And outside of my bigger objections of having Jim being the one willing to start a war by raining down torpedos on Kronios (where he does finally go to capture him) what effect would that have had.. at all? Except give Kahn potentially back his crew? If Kahn had tampered and hidden his people in those torpedos AND the commander knew it, what was the point at all of firing them if he hated Kahn?

    Kahn accepts Spock's word point blank about the torpedos, and never scans the rest of the enterprise ship.. he scans only and ONLY the bay where they are housed; outside of the housing, the cry-tubes, which were hidden should have shown up like christmas lights, as they covered that earlier.. hiding them in the technology of the torpedo was the only thing preventing them from showing up on a scanner.. so why did they hide later for Kahn?

    The entire sequence above earth had some SERIOUS problems. First, we start out when the drop out of warp with Sulu saying that they were hundreds of thousands of miles from earth.. not quite that before they dropped out; we see a backdrop of a beginning of a fight sequence.. and when it's all done and the ship falls apart it falls INTO EARTH'S GRAVITY WELL. Ok, were they close to earth or not? And if they were close to earth, how is it that Starfleet had absolutely zero ships that could even handle basic earth orbit to, you know ASSIST. And with all that chunks of debris ripping around everywhere, did they not notice any of it raining down on earth? I found that entire section to be crazy, disjointed, and really, really sloppy.

    Having Spock consult with "old Spock" seemed to be a writer's way of saying: we haven't given any of these people enough of a backstory to know how to resolve any of this, we have painted ourselves into a corner, and now we have to cheat.." and it felt like a cheat; as though a stage manager came out and whispered all the secrets "I said I wouldn't... but.." This -could- have went right. If Old Spock had just said "Khan Noonian Singh" and let young Spock figure out who he was in some way, but when it continued "he's devestating and evil blah blah blah" I thought: great, we are now just advancing the plot entirely by fiat. We've empowered characters with information they otherwise could not have had through a random connection..

    Along with minor quibbles I've noted elsewhere... the crazy lens flare, the fact that they've made engineering field with seemingly large bolted aluminum storage tanks which store.. I have no idea what..

    The action was good when it worked, but the connective tissue to this film was really weak sauce. In comparison, let me say Iron Man 3 had a much more cogent and rewarding storyline which at times had issues but nothing that made me say "why would this ever happen" .
     
  8. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    Yeah, that's why I noted that the "stuff" to get from set piece to set piece was not well-written for the characters to make logical choices to get to these set pieces where some shoe-horned dramatic action takes place at each pitstop.

    Plus, I guess in 2259, "911" response takes a really long time for the po-po. :D Also, even though they showed a lot of bystanders on earth, you never really got a sense of living in the 23rd century that felt natural.

    I was also confused by the 300-year attribution, wouldn't that have made those folks exist in 1959? Maybe if they were 200-years in stasis, it'd make more sense as their their Aryan-ness.
     
  9. Dave Scarpa

    Dave Scarpa Producer

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    All Spock had to do to get a Handle on who Khan was was, I Don't Know, maybe consult the computer on Board, Google it you ninnie, instead he has to call Old Spock. Yeah it's confusing as hell why Marcus would give Khan back his torpedo's I guess they would be killed impacting on Kronos, it would start the war Marcus Wants. But HY DOES Khan go to Kronos at all? If he now wants to exact revenge on Marcus, section 31 and Starfleet, why go to Kronos and give Marcus the excuse he needed to Start the war, none of it upon inspection makes any Damn sense. Furthermore none of Carol Marcus intention on Being there makes any sense, and how exactly does she get assigned to the enterprise when her father does not even know she is there. I cannot believe the People going La-la over this film, or now dismissing Trek and Roddenberry's and Gene Coon's Version as Quaint, but Out of Date.

    Nothing on Earth Tells me that the Humans of Abrams version have grown above Hatred, Prejudice, Terrorism, or even Pollution control. Abrams characters are Juvenile, Vengeful, Deceitful, vein. His Spock is a mess not only is not in control of his emotions, he becomes a homicidal Maniac in the First Film, Beating Down and Stranding Kirk to Die on a Barren World, in the second film He Beats the living Hell out of Khan and it's only Uhura's intervention from Bashing his skull in.

    Watch this Again



    and compare it to JJ's Ending

    There is no comparison in tone, acting and emotion. there can't be, we had 15 years of History with these characters by this point, not so with the abrams counterparts, so why would he even do his ending is beyond me.
     
  10. Chris Will

    Chris Will Supporting Actor

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    First, he wasn't looking for historical knowledge but knowledge from someone who he thought may have dealt with a Khan before. Second, we got to see Nimoy this way instead of nuSpock sitting at a computer monitor. I'll take cameo over that.
    He didn't want to give them back but destroy them and Khan when they impacted on Kronos. Seem pretty clear to me.
    I don't think Khan cared about weather Marcus got his war or not. I took his escape to Kronos as just that, an escape to somewhere he thought that Starfleet wouldn't follow so he could maybe regroup.
    She wasn't assigned to the Enterprise, she used her mother's name and forged her way onto the ship, that's how I took it at least.
    Of course the ending doesn't compare on the same level but, I thought the ending worked for this movie. I thought that was one of Pine's best acting moments and I found that the scene had some good emotional impact. I also thought Spock's reaction was well earned based on what they had setup earlier in the movie. I thought it worked for the story they were telling and I didn't mind it at all.I saw the movie again last night, this time in 3D, and still loved every minute. I know I'm not the only Trek fan that likes this movie either, I think most do based on the polls a t a few Trek sites. 83% of people at TrekMovie.com rate it good or higher. 75% give it a B+ or higher at Trekbbs.com.
     
  11. Quentin

    Quentin Screenwriter

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    This is just a terrible movie, period. It's an horrific Star Trek movie - comparable to 5 or Nemesis.

    But, it's so sloppily and lazily written that I'm forced to wonder if Abrams/Kurtzmann/Orci/Lindeloff are just to the point that they figure they can give fans what they think fans want in the form of a handful of 'satisfying' big moments or action pieces and fuck the rest.

    And, unfortunately, they're probably right in feeling that way because many critics and audiences are giving this tripe a pass.

    Look, I'll admit I gave a pass to the faults and laziness of the first Abrams Trek movie. After all, the first 40 minutes were really, REALLY good. The cast is sublime, and so is the Giacchino score.

    But, this movie is drech.

    Abrams and his gang are glorified fan fiction writers. They think of 'cool' situations they think fans will gobble up and the 'structure' something around it to make it pass as a story. They lucked out on this franchise with the most amazing casting in movie history. But, attempting to copy the Khan moments and force the square peg of the Khan legacy into this franchise is a joke.

    I agree with all of the above criticisms, particularly the silly 'call' to old-Spock. REALLY? That was the best they could come up with??!

    But, lets not gloss over the fact that Bones literally opens a cryotube and pulls out a super-engineered human and keeps him in a coma so they can freeze Kirk while they try to get Khan's blood....despite the blood of a super-engineered uberman lying right in front of him.

    And, never, never, never, EVER forget that Abrams had the balls (ignorance?) to have Spock howl "KHAAAAAAANNN!!!!" I literally burst into a guffaw in the theater. This film was embarrassing.
     
  12. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Well, so much for this film being universally loved. IMO, it wasn't great nor was it terrible as I was fully entertained for two hours.
     
  13. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    Me too and the crowd I saw it with LOVED it. I think if you're a person who doesn't like or doesn't care about Star Trek, there's a very chance that you'll have a good time with this movie but it sure seems like many existing Trek fans hate this movie more than Hitler.
     
  14. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    I'm going to see it this weekend. Spoliers and all...

    What part of "re-boot" does no-one get? Is JJ the best movie "writer"? No, not a chance. At least it isn't a Michael Bay Star Trek...
     
  15. todd s

    todd s Lead Actor

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    Saw it last night with a couple of friends. We enjoyed it.
     
  16. mattCR

    mattCR Executive Producer
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    I don't think it was that bad. I put it below several of the other movies, but it wasn't a total loss to me; the action sequences were solid and the effects were good. Really, the biggest complaints I had was that things happened that made no sense or characters did silly things.

    The ending sequence struck me as the worst, in that when they dropped out of warp they were supposedly too far from earth to get there.. and then they end up sucked into Earth's gravity well.. and Earth apparently had zero I mean ZERO ships anywhere nearby to, you know, get involved in any way. That seemed not only silly but preposterous. If Marcus was so busy anticipating a Klingon counterattack or war with the Klingons, isn't it crazy that there wasn't one ship anywhere near to earth that you know, could start beaming people off, rescuing people or stopping the battle? I thought this was going in a great direction if they had come as close as say, Jupiter or Mars.. close but no cigar.. and that's how it seemed to sound... but then they started a decent into earth's gravity well that took FOREVER in screentime, one of the slowest crashes from space to give them insane amount of time to fix it.. and it seemed pretty silly.

    I also disliked the Spock "phonecall" because with them saying they had trouble establishing communications earlier, I couldn't figure out how they quickly located someone who in the first movie said he would make sure he would not be contacted to avoid changing their future.. and then he basically tells them the whole scoop on the screen after saying "I shouldn't say this.." It seemed silly.

    The not using the blood of another uber-human was also.. strange, but the concept that Khan's blood would be a major healing agent was also silly.. if we accept these are genetically engineered beings, even if we got rid of the genetically engineered beings, isn't it strange that they had developed rapidly self healing humans that could defeat comas and disease they couldn't conquer hundreds of years later (as we saw with the little girl in the hospital?) In fact, how the heck did the immune system of a cryogenically frozen person have anything to do with radiation poisoning? Did it just eat radiation?

    I didn't understand that either. But I was more bothered by the slip ups that characters made that just seemed foolish; Kahn taking Spock completely at his word and not scanning the ship; and either you think Admiral Marcus knew what was in those torpedos and wanted them destroyed.. at which point, why fire them at Kronos when you know they've been tampered with.. or, if you assume he didn't know, then why send every single one of them on one ship to get rid of them, and decide to start a war with a first shot that would look horrifically weak.

    I also still don't get how someone 300 years out of date could suddenly become the main engineer and designer of the next generation space ship and weapons, as though he was caught up. One of the nice benefits of the original is that Kahn was a character out of time, he didn't understand his surroundings but he had the ability to command and learn.. but you never saw him in a role like "super engineer" "super medical doctor"..

    The movie isn't terrible. Some great moments that can be enjoyed with the action; but the connecting tissue of dialog as time goes on will start to weigh this down...

    Let's put it this way: They now have an antidote made from Kahn's blood that basically cures death.. it caused a tribble to revive from death, Kirk was basically dead.. so are humans going to be basically immortal unless vaporized now?
     
  17. Steve_Pannell

    Steve_Pannell Supporting Actor

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    Is it bad enough to be called "Star Trek: The Phantom Menace"? :)
     
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  18. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    Only if they check for the midichlorian count in Harrison...
     
  19. Quentin

    Quentin Screenwriter

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    I can't disagree. Look, Abrams still shot a good looking film. The Dreadnought class ship was cool looking. The FX were great. Score, still great. Cast, still superb. I love Urban as Bones and Pegg's expanded Scotty was a joy.

    But, "things that happened that made no sense" and "characters do silly things" are more than enough for me to pan ANY movie. It's why I hated Prometheus. It's why TDK is far superior to DKR. Those are pretty much two things that go a LONG way toward making a crappy movie crappy in my book.

    Combined with a flat-out lack of originality so bad that you can run the 'death' scenes in parallel and laugh at this one...well, that makes this movie worse than crappy to me. Despite all those good elements.
     
  20. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Or after seeing them, doesn't think too much about Star Trek films.
     

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