So there was no EE on TPM? (1 Viewer)

[Tony Whalen]

David:
I hear what you are saying, but let me rebut.
First off, I was merely agreeing with PatrickM, with regard to most people not caring. Perhaps I shouldn't have used J6P as an example. My whole point was that most people just don't care and/or even notice. (J6P is too busy screaming about those 'damn black bars' to notice stuff like EE)
I never said I don't SEE the haloing on my 32" (which is properly calibrated, natch) I just don't really CARE about it. That being said, I'll grant you that a disc with serious haloing/EE would be damned annoying on a large-scale projection setup. (Keep in mind that again, most people don't have something of this scale. I'm NOT saying that people who DO have a set up like this should have poor transfers just to satisfy the masses, though.) (I should also add that some of you guys make me green with envy. If I had a room that could HOUSE something on that scale, I'd be in there like a shirty dirt.)
So I hear you...I guess I'm just being the Devil's advocate.

But seriously, as much as I enjoy a good debate, this really is irrelevant to the main point of the issue. THX may have screwed up, or something in the mastering process caused the 'haloing'. Either way, let's wait and see if this workshop pans out.

 

[JackWillson]

Everyone must have ignored my post Check the TEASER tralier for Episode II when Padme and Anakin are hugging in the desert. Its the same kind of "ringing" effect in TPM check the arrival to naboo.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Tony,
that doesn't sound like a rebuttle...it sounds like you concur ;P
I don't mind someone playing the devil's advocate...it's just that THX is supposed to feel the same way we do about these things...they're supposed to be certifying that our DVDs look and sound as good as they possibly can...so there shouldn't even *be* a devil to advocate for
All that being said I can't wait to hear how this demo thing goes. Those in attendance should be respectful, but also determined to make the case known that a good DVD is a DVD that looks good 80 inches wide
BTW, I suffer with jealousy just like you. I'm stopping my local AV shop once a week to spin some DVDs for an hour or so on their Sharp 9000 just to get my "fix" until I get one myself! Sure am lucky the guys at that shop are so cool and don't mind me doing it...I feel like the kid reading the comics in the drug store then running out when the clerk walks by...
-dave

 

[Michael Dueppen]

I'm really glad they decided to at least look into this. I really wish to thank them for that.
I watched Tombstone two days ago and the ringing was awful in some scenes. TPM wasn't too great either but not that bad iirc. There's ringing in quite a few transfers but mostly I'm not too annoyed. In a few cases though (TPM, Tombstone, DH3) it really takes away from the movie watching experience. In some scenes I'm totally taken out of the movie because the ringing is so intrusive. At least in these few select cases something has to be done.
I'm thankful they decided to act. It's great when a company listens to their customers. I'm pretty sure that (from a sales volume perspective) they didn't have to because most people won't ever know and Star Wars or Die Hard will sell no matter what.

 

[Sam Davatchi]

With all these interesting talks here, now I have to see what this is all about. I guess I have to watch the movie again! But I’m only doing it for you guys! Let’s hope that we get a great transfer for THE ONE film that matters from New Line!

 

[Michael Dueppen]

Let’s hope that we get a great transfer for THE ONE film that matters from New Line!

100% with you on this one

 

[Carlo_M]

I don't recall EE being a huge problem on New Line discs, but now you've got me paranoid. I'm going to have to check as many NL discs as I can find in my collection when I get home!

 

[Nick_Scott]

Did anyone read that link by Frank? It shed alot of light on why TPM had so much EE, while its trailer on other DVDs did not.

From what I gathered, TPM is a relatively long movie, and contains many complicated scenes from beginning to end. Therefore, a difficult movie to MPEG encode without introducing terrible MPEG artifacts.

To make easier to encode, they filter with noise-reduction, and high-frequency filters. Also, they add aliasing filters to hide jaggies from downsampling.

Great, the movie can be compressed within a DVDs size-limits without bad MPEG artfacts, but all the filters have made the movie lack definition- almost blurry looking, so they apply aparture correction (EE) to sharpen the image. Looks like the original except for some ringing.

This is my take. The ringing IS EE, and is relative to the amount of filters applied. Perhaps the trailers did not show as much ringing because it was probobly encoded at a much higher bitrate, since space wasnt an issue. (higher bitrate->less filters->less aparture correction?) I think TPM had an average bitrate of 6.8, but I don't know about the trailers, or the Region2 disc.

OTOH, the Region2 TPM had less ringing, but it probobly could not have a higher bitrate since PAL takes up 15% more space with the higher resolution, and has 2 5.1 DD-EX tracks instead of 1 on the region1 disc. But, maybe it has less filtering applied.

Boggles my mind. I think the reason might be that they didn't add any EE, but did add too much filtering. And the SONY encoder automatically added to much EE to compensate? Is this even possible? I think this is what THX will say.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

Because of the way MPEG-2 breaks a picture into blocks and transforms them into frequency information it can have a problem with the sharp edges common in animation. This loss of high-frequency information can show up as "ringing" or blurry spots along edges (called the Gibbs effect).

CGI is similar; hard edges, lots of diagonals, doesn't compress well.

Most of my technical docs on MPEG compression are out on loan, or I'd bring out some more quotes to support my 'ridiculous statement.'

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

Great, the movie can be compressed within a DVDs size-limits without bad MPEG artfacts, but all the filters have made the movie lack definition- almost blurry looking, so they apply aparture correction (EE) to sharpen the image. Looks like the original except for some ringing.

A similar technique can be used to remove grain or grit. I frequently do something similar in Photoshop when restoring old photographs that don't have too much detail to them but have plenty of fine scratching or marking -- I throw away detail, and then regain the appearance of sharpness with unsharp masking.

 

[RobertR]

From what I gathered, TPM is a relatively long movie, and contains many complicated scenes from beginning to end. Therefore, a difficult movie to MPEG encode without introducing terrible MPEG artifacts.

I don't buy that explanation at all, Nick. First of all, The running time of TPM is 133 minutes, which is FAR from unusually long. Compare it to the DVD of Lost in Space, which has a running time only 3 minutes shorter, and does NOT have noticeable EE (and it even has a lot of CGI and SFX).

Secondly, I don't understand what you mean by "complicated scenes". If you're saying there's an extraordinarily large amount of nonstatic imagery in the frame (thereby stressing the MPEG encoder), I strongly disagree. It's not unusual in that regard at all, and the "it's because of all the CGI" argument is destroyed by the Toy Story discs, which are nothing BUT CGI, and DON'T have EE.

There is NO reasonable excuse for the EE on TPM.

 

[Nick_Scott]

Robert-

I'm just trying to think of possible explainations, because otherwise why is it there?

I find it hard to believe that studios add EE just so it looks good on J6P's TV, when J6P obviously doesn't care as much about the PQ as we do.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

REGARDLESS of its origin, it is REAL, it is BAD, and, based on the fact that it's not present in ALL transfers or even in all CGI transfers, it is something that is NOT inescapable.

Especially when they are on the same release...just watch the extras.

 

[David Forbes]

Here's a quote from the DVD faq. Of course it goes on to say that this rarely happens due to DVD bandwidth, but it's also talking about animation, which compresses well due to it's wide fields of single colours.

CGI is similar; hard edges, lots of diagonals, doesn't compress well.

The animation this refers to is traditional cel animation, not CGI. The whole CGI argument is completely specious in this case; for one thing, the CGI rendered creatures in TPM have no "harder" edges than the physical actors. That is the whole point of making them photorealistic (or trying to make them that way). Besides, quite a bit of the problem with TPM is not with CGI characters or backgrounds. Just look at Liam Neeson's head against the desert background when he's watching the pod race from the observation tower. There's a huge halo around his (and everyone else's) head.

So yes, saying that CGI has anything whatsoever to do with the EE in TPM is ridiculous. It may be that the amount of CG rendering softened the overall image so much that either EE or excessive filtering was applied to correct it, resulting in the mess we are seeing, but your assertion that CG images themselves cause EE problems with the MPEG decoders is just wrong.

Anyone who has viewed this disc on a high resolution system, or even a moderate resolution system, should realize that it looks terrible in comparison to other discs. The fact that it is THX certified throws into question the quality of service they provide. We need to find out what is going on so that whatever is causing this can be eliminated.

David Forbes

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

The whole CGI argument is completely specious in this case; for one thing, the CGI rendered creatures in TPM have no "harder" edges than the physical actors.

Ok. I'm officially withdrawing out of this conversation. Seems the safest path for all concerned.

I'd suggest that y'all simply wait and see what happens at the workshop.

 

[Ken Situ]

Just look at Liam Neeson's head against the desert background when he's watching the pod race from the observation tower. There's a huge halo around his (and everyone else's) head.

Isn't that what it suppose to be? He's a Jedi, and the FORCE is with him.

 

[Sam Davatchi]

Maybe he was a ghost and we didn't know it!

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

If ordinary DVD "downconversion," as you call it, were the culprit, why does this vary so much from disc to disc?

If I had to take a guess, I'd put it down to various encoders. Each has it's own little peculiarities, and ringing may be the unfortuneate side effect of one of them.

 

[RobertR]

I'd put it down to various encoders

If that really is the case, I suggest this be done: Pick the DVD transfers that people with excellent front projectors (such as Bjoern Roy and Frank Manrique) AGREE are topnotch (detailed, NO EE, excellent shadow detail, minimal MPEG artifacts, etc.). Find out what encoder was used for them. Say to the studios, hey guys, USE WHAT THEY USED. Problem solved.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

You're probably right. Or at least the encoder is partly to blame...seems that the encoder that Sony uses, in spite of its great performance in other ares, adds a bit of ringing too.
I remember when I was arguing with THX to support 16x9 and they kept crying the "downconversion blues" about how the artifacts of downconversion in different DVD players were unpredictable. I had a brilliant idea. I suggested that THX go head and support 16x9 encoding and then certify DVD players that do a good job of downconversion.
Maybe they could certify MPEG2 encoders...making sure they do justice to the signal; preserving the maxiumum amount of detail and adding no ringing to the image.
If they drop the ball on this one the only thing we can hope is that maybe the ISF will get involved in these sort of issues. I'd definitely give a darn if I saw "ISF Certified" on a DVD cover. I'd give even more of darn if I knew that my DVD player had been ISF certified or that a movie had been compressed using an ISF certified MPEG2 encoder.
I guess what I want is a logo that means something. I think that's what we all want. If THX wants to mean something then great...they've got a chance to redeem themselves. If they don't, I'd rather that they go do something else and let some other group step up to the plate or just let us buy our DVDs logo-free.
-dave