So there was no EE on TPM? (1 Viewer)

[Michael Reuben]

This isn't the first time we've been told that no EE was used on a transfer that clearly exhibits ghosting. The same thing happened with the remastered Die Hard with a Vengeance. The halo effect was obvious in numerous shots (and, as here, was even more obvious in comparison to the same shots in the trailer). In response to one of our threads, Peter Staddon checked with the technical people responsible for the transfer and was assured that there was no EE.
I think the workshop that's been announced is an excellent idea and deserves all of our support. Make that our open-minded support.
M.

 

[JackWillson]

Ok here I go. For a while now ive been wondering why fox has been saying there is NO EE on tpm. After watching the star wars episode 2 tralier (teaser) you can see a white line around padme and anakin while they are hugging. Thats the same white crap I see in the TPM dvd. Look at the arrival to naboo and you can see the ship with the white around it. Maybe these White lines are effect from all the bluescreen?

 

[Terrell]

Well, consider me pleased with TPM DVD transfer. Yes, if I look hard enough, I can find flaws I wouldn't have otherwise, including EE. But to me, the picture looks tremendous. Yes, there seems to be what looks like some EE, but I watch the movie, not study every little flaw in the transfer. Personally, the Vista Series Tombstone is a much worse offender for EE than TPM. If it turns out that no EE was used on TPM, I guess there will be a lot of red faces. But then we'll probably never know. However, I will say that Bjoern's pics will tend to show far more EE by capturing pics, than you'll see watching the film. But I think Bjoern has his horizontal and vertical edges mixed up, because in the pics, the horizontal edges look much worse than the vertical edges, and he's saying the opposite.

At least Ling is stepping up to the challenge.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

This isn't the first time we've been told that no EE was used on a transfer that clearly exhibits ghosting.

Edge Enhancement is a PROCESS. It's something you decide to do. It's an effect you apply to the video.

What TPM exhibits does include a lot of aliasing and alot of ghosting around objects on screen; my (unprofessional) estimation is that it's a combo of downconversion, and the fact that most of the things in TPM are CGI, and MPEG handles 'organic' edges much better than artifical ones.

But if the professionals are saying 'we didn't apply the EE process to the film' then they didn't, and what you're seeing, although it does exist, is the result of something else.

 

[PatrickM]

I hope those who take baseless shots at either Van Ling or THX, Lucasfilm or Fox for that matter understand when a workshop like this doesn't happen. Its because its a no win situation for them. If they thought they would get an open minded group that was interested in finding out what the problem is/was then I can see them putting some effort into it. Why would you want to do anything that requires getting a group of very busy and talented people together just to get lambasted and probably not even to their faces. They get their shots afterwards on forums like these.
Why do you think we aren't seeing anymore chats recently other than Van Ling's which was setup quite a while ago. Its because of the rude and unconstructive bashing we see in threads like this.
Patrick

 

[Clinton McClure]

It seems to me that even if this isn't purposely induced EE (which I'm still not ruling out), why did their QA group not question it after the first disc was pressed and checked, then find the cause and fix the cause before the disc was mass-produced? Do they not perform first-piece quality checks? I don't believe it is just a product of compression. There are how many thousand DVDs on the market today and how many of them look this bad? In my opinion, there was a serious quality muck-up with TPM and an even worse one with Tombstone Vista Series and no one is being held responsible.
I also would be very interested to see the results of the workshop.

 

[Walter Kittel]

Regardless of whether or not, THX, Lucasfilm, Fox, Buena Vista, etc. tolerate the 'harsh' talk or are deeply offended by some of the criticism is immaterial.
It is in their best interests to resolve these issues, because their reputations are being tarnished.
It is in their best interests because they lose sales when their products receive bad reviews.
It is in their best interests if they truly believe in the quality of their product. ( It's obvious that Buena Vista isn't overly concerned, given the haphazard treatment of their catalog titles; but I've always held out more hope for the other parties mentioned. )
There is simply no excuse for the amount of haloing on Tombstone and to a lesser extent on Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. If no intential EE was added to these titles, fine. That doesn't mean that these releases aren't problematic. I just hope that they can find whatever the cause of the haloing might be and resolve it before any more titles are compromised in such a manner.
- Walter.

 

[PatrickM]

I would agree that its in a studios best interest to provide a quality product each and every time out but I would hardly think speaking about them unconstructively and rudely is immaterial. Is that how you would get a person working for you to do something? I highly doubt it. Being critical and being rude can be two different things. They don't have to be linked.

This is besides the fact that the EE/haloing we see is usually only seen by those of us paying attention for it. Lets face it, 98% of the viewing public will never even notice it unless you point it out so its hardly ruining their viewing pleasure unlike other problems we've had with DVD's like not loading, super slow menus (Dinosaur) or audio dropouts on certain pieces of equipment (a la Onkyo receivers and Pearl Harbor).

Don't get me wrong, I want perfect sound, transfers, OAR and extras but we get nowhere when we get rude about things.

Patrick

 

[nousername]

It doesn't matter if you call it edge enhancement or not, the results are horrible. I only have a 36-inch Sony XBR450, and I can't bear to watch the movie anymore. I have to turn my sharpness all the way down (my set is calibrated, by the way), but then this makes everything look blurry.

In contrast, the trailers and other extras look much better. Anyone with a trained eye can see this.

I want my money back, Lucasfilm!

 

[Luis A]

I wouldn't fly to LA, but I would drive down if there were a workshop. It would be very interesting to see what the cause of the ringing is on TPM.
L

 

[Kevin Coleman]

If they do this I would be willing to fly out there for a day or two. I really don't care what we call this effect either I just want to get rid of it. Some of the outdoor pod racing scenes look almost like VHS there is so much ringing and loss of detail. I can see the edge anomally from the opening Fox logo on.
Kevin C.

 

[Dan Brecher]

They replied that they wanted it to look like film, and did a top-notch high-def back at the initial video release.

Indeed, but did they also not say that none of the same source material done to make the LD was used for the DVD?

Dan (UK)

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Duh.
Whatever the reason, there was 'ringing' introduced into the final DVD image. Whether THX turned a knob on purpose labeled "Edge Enhancement" or not is irrelevant.
They certified the transfer. It has a problem with ringing artifacts. This is the problem.

What TPM exhibits does include a lot of aliasing and alot of ghosting around objects on screen; my (unprofessional) estimation is that it's a combo of downconversion, and the fact that most of the things in TPM are CGI, and MPEG handles 'organic' edges much better than artifical ones.

Is that why Toy Story and Shrek are such perfect transfers with *no* visible "ringing" artifacts?

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

Is that why Toy Story and Shrek are such perfect transfers with *no* visible "ringing" artifacts?

What, like, the one, right off the top of my head, on the title card for Toy Story 2? The thing looks like a playstation graphic.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Sorry,

my "duh" comment was focused on the entire thread...which seemed to be going in the direction of "maybe THX didn't mean to do it" or something...which to me is irrelevant to a certification that wants to take themselves seriously.

When the consumers have to explain to THX the difference between a good transfer and a bad one, we've got a problem.

BTW, Shrek has virtually *no* ringing to speak of...and obviously has some very hard transitions between objects in the image given its graphical orgins.

My point is that all this talk of "it's MPEG compression artifacts" is also a red herring. That "mosquito" noise you often see around hard text or images is a "crawlie" sortof noise which moves, dances, and varies with the bit rate. It doesn't appear fixed and "clean" like the ghosting we see as these "halos".

This has all been covered before in Bjoern's threads. Why are we even discussing something that's already been demonstrated to be REAL ringing of some "introduced" kind?

The if THX doesn't think they did anything well they need to figure out where they goofed...because ringing was indeed introduced in some way...and it's not MPEG2 compression artifacting. Remember, these are the same guys that 2 years ago were telling us (yes, literally telling us) that "16x9 anamorphic encoding wasn't really something we should care about since this was just 'DVD" and not something actually worth the worry like HDTV or anything. Besides...what about all the J6P who want to get a good image on their 27" 4x3 set...would it be fair for them to have downconversion artifacts in their picture?"

Yep...the same guys at THX said these things. Put in perspective, this whole "EE" thing is just the next THX lesson for them to learn. And just like with 16x9 anamorphic, it's the home-theater hobbyist who now has to teach THX what a good picture looks like on a 100" projection screen vs a bad one.

-dave

 

[Michael St. Clair]

What, like, the one, right off the top of my head, on the title card for Toy Story 2? The thing looks like a playstation graphic.

Um, the title card for Toy Story 2 is known to trigger the chroma bug present in most DVD players on the market (plus the 'flicker' bug present in a few players).
There is no issue with MPEG encoding and the Toy Story 2 title card.
And if the ringing present in SW:TPM is due to the 'inorganic' nature of the source images, then why is the problem greatly reduced on the trailer and the PAL version?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Exactly Michael.

The point is that all these issues have already been belabored at great length, and turned over, upside down, and inside out again and the bottom line is that the evidence undeniably points to some sort of "ringing" that has been introduced into the image not associated with MPEG2 compression artifacting or "film source" related anamolies (some even claimed early on that these artifacts must have been present in the film prints!).

THX goofed.

THX needs to fess up and get it together.

 

[Carlo_M]

One last time (since I was one of those who mentioned that it may not be EE we're seeing):
1. There are halos everyhere on the DVD.
2. This halo may not be "EE" as the process is called.
3. REGARDLESS something needs to be done about it.
4. Most importantly, don't be rude to people, be they in the industry or not
We have a chance here to make our opinions heard. Then we get comments like "Van Ling doesn't know this," or "THX Sucks I want my money back," or some other thing. That's not constructive, and actually tends to hurt our cause. We want to better the DVD making process for us HTF'ers and movie lovers and videophiles. How can we do this? Through studio support. The very same support we risk losing by making those statements above, especially when most of us don't know what we are doing. We're like the patient with a bad cough, telling the doctor what we think the problem is. But do we really know better? Do you insist that you're doctor doesn't know what he's diagnosing and just take whatever medication you think you need?

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

I also think that it is not constructive to lay blame right now. We should be trying to help find the source of the ringing first and foremost.

Saying, for instance, that this is THX's fault -- that is a hard position to defend without more information. For instance, do THX actually perform the film to video transfer? Do they perform the actual authoring of the discs? What if the ringing is sneaking in at one of those stages?

I'm trying to remember what came of the discussion of the Akira DVD, when it was brought up that perhaps the encoder used was introducing ringing with no option to turn it off.

I think the offer of a workshop is a fabulous one, and moreso a very generous one from people who appear to want to get to the bottom of the problem. It is a great opportunity to get to the bottom of this mystery. Let's not sabotage it by alienating the people who are trying to help.

 

[David Forbes]

my (unprofessional) estimation is that it's a combo of downconversion, and the fact that most of the things in TPM are CGI, and MPEG handles 'organic' edges much better than artifical ones.

This is a ridiculous statement. For one thing, my image (and Bjoern Roy's) of TPM is not downconverted, so that has no bearing on the issue. Second, where are you getting the information that MPEG handles "organic" edges better than "artifical" ones? They are both simply images on film. How they were generated has nothing to do with the encoding process.

I also do not "look" for EE problems, but they were so pervasive in TPM that I could not ignore them. At the beginning of the pod race when the pods are being fueled, the EE around the fuel lines is almost as thick as the hoses! It's just an awful, awful transfer.

I do not think anyone should be bashing Van Ling or anyone at THX personally, but they are failing at their stated mission, which is to provide a certification that DVDs are of the highest quality. And that is something that should worry them, because it diminishes their brand and tarnishes their reputation.

David Forbes