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Since when does quality filmmaking not include popcorn movies? (1 Viewer)

Edwin-S

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What constitutes a bad movie? Movies are entirely a personal thing. What one person thinks is an example of good filmmaking, another person thinks is shit. There have been quite a few posts that cite "THE ROCK" as an example of quality action filmmaking. I thought THE ROCK was essentially a badly written piece of shit. The eye candy of things blowing up was well done, but the story was badly written and illogical. On the other hand plenty of people here were posting how bad TREASURE PLANET was. At least that film maintained an internal consistency and structure, something that THE ROCK failed to do.
 

rin

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Has political correctness gone so far that one must soften his opinion to the point where it makes no impact?
PC has nothing to do with it. I'm not saying that anyone need soften their opinions at all. State your opinion as such and have the common sense to realize that others will have their own views which are valid to them and which don't necessarily match your own. I would never try to convince you that Armageddon is a great film, but I thought it was great IMO. Assuming that your opinion should make an impact on others seems a little arrogant.

Sorry if I seem a little grumpy today but I didn't get enough sleep last night. I was up late last night watching "Cabin Boy" and anyone who doesn't like that movie is an elitist bastard!
 

Stephen_Dar

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It's all opinions, folks, nobody's right or wrong.
Let's not get too confused by PC here. You speak as though "opinions" are pulled out of a hat, and mine at least are not. The question is, can we speak intelligently about our opinions, how we derived them, etc, and find common ground even with those who liked something we didn't? I know that is possible, and much more enjoyable than just sitting around saying "Gee, I liked it, you didn't, but these are just meaningless opinions, so no point continuing this discussion!" In fact, if you feel that way, I have no idea why you'd be hanging around a forum where people specifically want to compare opinions and enjoy their passion, film.

If someone raises interesting, objective points about a film I disliked, I am able to understand and appreciate their points, often to the point where I will re-watch the movie and sometimes change my opinion about it.

I for one think the point has been well made in this thread that many of us would welcome the exchange of harder-hitting opinions that avoid the use of meaningless terms like "popcorn movies" as some sort of defense for crappy moviemaking. Of course not everyone will follow suit, but I enjoyed hearing that many others feel as I do. Now, let's go forward and have fruitful discussion:D Bring on Return of the King!
 

Matthew_Millheiser

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Good Lord!!

The question is, can we speak intelligently about our opinions, how we derived them, etc, and find common ground even with those who liked something we didn't? I know that is possible, and much more enjoyable than just sitting around saying "Gee, I liked it, you didn't, but these are just meaningless opinions, so no point continuing this discussion!" In fact, if you feel that way, I have no idea why you'd be hanging around a forum where people specifically want to compare opinions and enjoy their passion, film.
Opinion is just that: one's personal feelings, emotional responses, gut-level reactions, etc.. When did I say, and please quote me on this with pinpoint accuracy, that "there's no point continuing this discussion when we disagree?" As someone who has written and reviewed film, and participated in a ton of film discussion, I find this assertation rather amusing.

My only point is this: you can discuss the merits of a film like The Shawshank Redemption until you are blue in the face. If someone doesn't like the film, who are you to tell them they're wrong? I have nothing against film discussion. I'm all for intelligent, reasonable, and constructive conversation and debate. But it's presumptuous (and, as much as this word has erroneously been thrown around, elitist as hell) for anyone to assume that their opinion on a film supercedes that of another.

This has nothing to do with political correctness. I find it fascinating that people start playing the "oh you're being PC" card just because they feel they're outlook on life isn't shared by others.

Note: Is this is the point in the conversation where I am supposed to dole out a list of my favorite obscure art, foreign, or independent films that need to establish my "street cred" of film knowledge? Do I need to back up my love of Armageddon with a standard disclaimer, i.e. "Hey I think Ozu's An Autumn Afternoon is probably the pinnacle of Asian filmmaking and Cocteau's Blood of a Poet sports more profound and comprehensive special effects vis-a-vis propelling the narrative than most Hollywood blockbusters, and say have I mentioned that I shook hands with the director of Golem: l'esprit de l'exil..." Well, nuts to that. I liked The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Don't believe me? I'll poop in your hat!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry:
 

Steve Christou

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But what about the 'general consensus' on whether a film is shit or not?
Does that matter at all?
Is it the general consensus among filmfans that 'Armageddon' is a piece of shit, an expensive turkey? I don't think so, I think people accept it as an expensive, loud, entertaining 'popcorn' movie, with no pretentions.

Armageddon isn't a great film but it isn't 'Battlefield Earth' either. And I much prefer it to the overly sentimental 'Deep Impact', which seemed like a tv movie that accidently strayed into cinemas by comparison.

The Hulk was a summer 'popcorn' movie that failed IMO, directed by Ang Lee who has no affinity for this type of film whatsoever, and it shows, the film was deadly dull whenever the Hulk was offscreen, and when he did appear it looked like he was drawn with crayon and pasted in, only the closeups looked good, the film started dropping fast after its opening weekend, probably because people were deterring others from seeing it.
 

Stephen_L

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Deciding a film's quality and liking a film are two different things. I'm very demanding of the films I watch. I want sympathetic characters, non-formulaic stories, good plots, etc. However I'd be the first to admit that I absolutely love some films that do not fall under that quality category. I've got dozens of guilty pleasures, films that I love, that resonate with me but that most people either hate or don't understand. I just don't try to claim they are great cinema.
 

SteveGon

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I've got dozens of guilty pleasures, films that I love, that resonate with me but that most people either hate or don't understand. I just don't try to claim they are great cinema.
Me too. You should hear my friends after I've foisted Santa Sangre on them! :crazy:
 

rin

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I don't think it's arrogant at all. Not much point in having an opinion if you're not gonna share it
Steve, I'm all for sharing opinions. Nothing arrogant about that.
But IMO when someone thinks that his opinion is more valid than anothers and that his opinion should somehow make an "impact" changing anothers viewpoint to one that is more acceptable to him, that's arrogant.
I'm not saying this applies to anyone in particular, it's just a general statement. Really.
 

Rob Bartlett

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You know, people will often use the term derogitorily, but how many times have we played ho to lowest common denomination?

It's important to studios that most people like a movie then most people love it. Cult popularity is nice, but at best a completely phyric at best. If an ambitous film is less to our liking, movie buffs will not hesitate to take a big hot shit on it. We claim that Hollywood interefering is like pouring water in a potent concoction, but when a movie goes without audience testing, AI and Hulk we're more then eager to apply our theoretical editing shears into the mix.

We don't want anything new or exciting or truly thought-provoking. We want polished versions of movies we alreayd like.
 

Mike Broadman

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If someone doesn't like the film, who are you to tell them they're wrong?
Oh stop it. No one does that. I've been a member of the HTF for a couple of years and have read and made bold, sweeping statements- "Director X is the greatest ever," "Actor Y is a severely overrated pretty-boy hack," "Movie Z is an overblown pretentious crap fest," etc. Yet no one ever says, "You are wrong!" So let's not set up straw-men, shall we?

Now, saying that "It's just your opinion" is simply stating the obvious. Ok, so it's an opinion. Now that we've established that, so what?

No reasonable person debates fact. We debate opinion.

To just throw out any discussion or argument by stating "it's just opinion" is boring.

So, if I say "Michael Bay is a hack," it stands to reason that that is my opinion. I don't have to state, "It is my opinion that Michael Bay is a hack."

From my POV, rin, all you're asking people to do is type more extra words in their posts.
 

Matthew_Millheiser

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Man, this Alison Krauss DVD is something else!

Anyway, it's a beautiful thing when (I think) we're all in agreement that we want more ambition, thought, and enjoyment put into our entertainment. That being said, I will never claim that Armageddon is great cinema, but to me it's certainly a lot of fun and has seen a lot of spin-time on my player. The same goes for The Fifth Element, Face/Off, the Blade films, etc..

I think it's a testament to our love and enjoyment of the cinema that movies like The Rock, Nashville, Andrei Rublev, and Blazing Saddles can all co-exist side-by-side on our shelves. Just thinking about it gets me choked up...

I... *sniff*... must have something in my eye...
 

Matthew_Millheiser

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To just throw out any discussion or argument by stating "it's just opinion" is boring.
No one ever "threw out discussion" anywhere. The only issue that arises is when people start throwing around opinion as fact. For instance, when people run around spouting half-assed hyperbole like "Everybody hated Titanic", "The Star Wars prequels blow and everybody knows it" or "Ebert has lost it for panning The Erotic Adventures of Hans Moleman ", etc. etc. I am the first person to scream bloody murder if I have to append an IMO or IMHO to my statements. I agree, of course it's opinion when I say I think that Dinner With Joan Baez is the finest piece of cinema now that the four cut reels from The Magnificent Ambersons are lost to antiquity.

I'm all for film discussion. I'm all against people presenting opinion as fact. And I'm really against people assuming their opinion is more valid than another's.

Example: My girlfriend's favorite musical is The Sound of Music. I personally believe that Robert Wise did a much superior job with West Side Story, as it has a stronger storyline, better songs, more imaginative cinematography, and the collaborative efforts of Jerome Robbins, Stephen Sondheim, Leonard Bernstein, and Ernest Lehman elevate WSS to near sainthood, whereas TSOM is tripe in comparison. She grew up watching TSOM several times yearly, singing the songs in chorus and religiously memorizing the dialog. Comparitively, she doesn't know as much about film and film history as I do, and doesn't particularly care for WSS. Even as I argue every point with her, she simply pronounces that she likes TSOM better.

Two separate opinions. And neither one is "right". I'm 100% for debating and discussing; I'm against people asserting that their opinions are stone fact and those who disagree are "unenlightened." It all smacks of hooey and arrogance, and it reveals a startling lack of confidence and conviction in the "enlightened" one.

That's all I got on this subject, I think I've hammered my point to extreme dullness. Funny how often I end up in that sphere.... :frowning:
 

Dome Vongvises

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Looks around, scratches his ass, and picks his nose

Well, nothing for me to contribute here. It seems like all the best things have already been said.
 

Patrick McCart

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I don't like using the term "popcorn" to describe these, but it IS possible to make a huge crowd pleaser AND make it quality.

Gone With The Wind...Casablanca...North By Northwest...Blazing Saddles...The Adventures of Robin Hood...The Maltese Falcon...Lawrence of Arabia...I could go on hours.

The Lord of the Rings trilogy is a good example of the best blend of crowd pleasing and quality, even. The problem has a lot to do with looking for the lowest common denominator.
 

Brad Porter

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Movie discussion is all about expressing opinions.

Useful movie discussion is all about expressing opinions and supporting them.

If I ask you what you thought about a movie and your response is "It sucked. I was bored.", then I'm probably not going to ask you for any more opinions. Likewise, a response of "It kicked ass. They blowed up stuff real good." isn't going to endear me to your opinion either. Yes, they are opinions, but what value do they have to anyone that doesn't already share the same opinions on filmmaking as you? I have no indication of whether I should see the film or avoid it.

The problem in general with the "popcorn" movies and their public perception is that they aren't expected to stand up to criticisms of their plot, dialogue, characterization, pacing, tone, etc. Several people in this thread have said that if that's what you are looking for, then why are you watching a film by (insert your least favorite popcorn director here). This misses the point of the thread. It's one thing for a large portion of the audience to abandon hope of quality filmmaking in their summer blockbusters (the "just turn your brain off defense"), but when the producers/directors go into the production trying to achieve this level of quality, it's difficult for the rest of us to not get cynical. We are saying that (shitty director) should have some pride in the product he's producing.

My general response when I leave the worst of these films is "They spent $30 million on the lead actor, $20 million on the effects, $50 million on the rest of the production - why didn't they hire a competent writer? Or at least hire a technical advisor that would have pointed out the flaws. How does all that money get committed to a project with that shitty plot?" The only explanation that I can come up with is that they just don't care about artistic merit - and neither do the opening weekend audiences. As long as this trend continues, I'll continue to not go to the theater for most of the summertime.

I guess that's why I've only seen 6 films in the theater so far this year, and I only have plans to see about 12 more before the end of the year. And I'm basing those plans on the writers and directors, not big name stars or visual effects or surround sound mix or whatever other secondary filmmaking element that generally is the only quality thing in the "popcorn" films.

Hey Steve, why don't you start a thread that gets people to argue next time. :p)

Brad
 

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