Shout Factory Press Release: Route 66: The Complete Series (1 Viewer)

[Nebiroth]

I have a long standing policy of not buying individual releases of anything, the sole exception being the Doctor Who discs (although even with those, the rising incidences of "new special editions" and the "revisitations sets" are becoming too much.
This is because the studios - and they are all equally guilty of it - invariably screw their most loyal and enthusiastic customers over by releasing a complete set at the end of a run, which is usually both cheaper and better.
Of course, this leads to stupidities like series getting cancelled "because of disappointing sales of the initial volumes". Well, quelle surprise. We are all waiting for that complete set - the one that will cost 50% less and have new material in it.
There's a very old saying: fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Brock /t/318411/shout-factory-press-release-route-66-the-complete-series/90#post_3927575
And what about those of us that have already bought the previous 6 releases of seasons 1-3?

You mean people like me? I'd never be so cavalier to suggest that people just suck it up and enjoy the 85% of good A/V quality episodes if I wasn't going to be double-dipping myself. I'd never make those type of statements if I wasn't going to be dealing with it too. So yeah, I'm saying that even with me double-dipping I still think it's worth it to lay aside the less than stellar quality of about 10% of the episodes in favor of the overall product.


Gary "and no, I'm not being a Shout defender here - I'd like to have seen them do better and this is another 'blemish' on their record as far as I'm concerned - but I'm still getting the set and I'm quite sure I'll be happy I did once it arrives" O.

 

[smithb]

I already sold my first three seasons for $40. I figure at the pace i bought them before I would have had to pay $40 for season 4 or $20 a piece for each volume. So in the end I'm spending about the same to have the complete series. I view it as pretty much a wash either way.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

Richard Gallagher has posted his review here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/320863/route-66-the-complete-series-dvd-review

 

[ChrisALM]

Originally Posted by younger1968 /t/318411/shout-factory-press-release-route-66-the-complete-series/90#post_3927484
Is it possible that they could only do so much with tapes and such the first 15 episodes were the best they could do? I have seen on many shows that were clean up there are some mistakes from time to time.
I have purchased the set as it is show i never seen as a kid, but heard good things about the show. You also add in that i am big fan of Martin Milner from Adam-12 has also added to my intrigue about the show. I seen George Maharis in different TV shows like Logan's Run or Fantasy Island, etc.

Better copies exist, the real question is why didn't Shout use them. There are always some imperfections, but when I view the outdoor photography in some of the restored Rawhide and The Fugitive episodes, I cannot help but wish that Route 66 would have received the same treatment. I understand if nothing else exists, then you have to take what you can get if you want the show. But that isn't the case here.

So, I was hoping for something better with this release. It didn't happen and that's the way it is. Oh, well.

 

[younger1968]

Better copies exist, the real question is why didn't Shout use them. There are always some imperfections, but when I view the outdoor photography in some of the restored Rawhide and The Fugitive episodes, I cannot help but wish that Route 66 would have received the same treatment. I understand if nothing else exists, then you have to take what you can get if you want the show. But that isn't the case here.
So, I was hoping for something better with this release. It didn't happen and that's the way it is. Oh, well.

I feel your pain, but it does appear they could only do so much with the originals. I have the series on order as i am huge fan of Martin Milner and look forward to watching the set over the next few months

 

[smithb]

Better copies exist, the real question is why didn't Shout use them. There are always some imperfections, but when I view the outdoor photography in some of the restored Rawhide and The Fugitive episodes, I cannot help but wish that Route 66 would have received the same treatment. I understand if nothing else exists, then you have to take what you can get if you want the show. But that isn't the case here.
So, I was hoping for something better with this release. It didn't happen and that's the way it is. Oh, well.

Existing but not available from those that have them. Or existing but too expensive, making a release cost prohibitive is basically the same thing. Just because something supposedly exists does not mean they are free for the taking. This keeps getting mentioned with no reference as to who has them and what the cost would be to obtain them. The thought that Shout! is being lazy seems to take precedence over the possibility that it just wasn't an option due to the expense. Sure laziness is a possibility but expense sure seems like a more logical reason. Unless someone can offer evidence to the contrary I will assume a cost issue.

 

[ChrisALM]

Originally Posted by smithb /t/318411/shout-factory-press-release-route-66-the-complete-series/120#post_3927757
Existing but not available from those that have them. Or existing but too expensive, making a release cost prohibitive is basically the same thing. Just because something supposedly exists does not mean they are free for the taking. This keeps getting mentioned with no reference as to who has them and what the cost would be to obtain them. The thought that Shout! is being lazy seems to take precedence over the possibility that it just wasn't an option due to the expense. Sure laziness is a possibility but expense sure seems like a more logical reason. Unless someone can offer evidence to the contrary I will assume a cost issue.

I think we are thinking along the same lines. I think money is the likely factor here, but I don't really know that, so I tried to stay away from speculation on anything. And I don't want to be overly critical of Shout when I don't know all the answers about this. The one thing I do know is that I am disappointed about this release, but it is what it is.

In this TVonDVD world, what I would like and what I can get is sometimes far apart. I have learned to live with that - most of the time.

 

[Noir Voyeur]

I think we are thinking along the same lines. I think money is the likely factor here, but I don't really know that, so I tried to stay away from speculation on anything. And I don't want to be overly critical of Shout when I don't know all the answers about this. The one thing I do know is that I am disappointed about this release, but it is what it is.
In this TVonDVD world, what I would like and what I can get is sometimes far apart. I have learned to live with that - most of the time. 

I don't know that I can agree with this, Chris. Recent history in this area demonstrates that if you make enough noise, things can happen.
Roxbury's initial release of Route 66 Season 1 Vol 2, had episodes 16-30 formatted in fake widescreen. There was an enormous outcry about this, and Roxbury, after initially coming out with an absurd explanation which included the statement "since the restoration process utilized the original 35mm film assets, the goal was to do a high definition transfer, updating the aspect ratio for broadcast on new HD TVs ... which requires an update to the 16x9 aspect ratio for new HD TV Broadcast and future Digital Media delivery", were finally persuaded to see the error of their ways, and included those episodes in their correct aspect ratio when they later released the Complete Season 1 box set.
Stephen Bowie wrote about this at length, in his excellent Classic TV History blog:
http://classictvhistory.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/86-this-66-the-tv-classic-route-66-hits-a-dead-end-on-the-hi-def-highway/
CBS, meanwhile, released Season 2 of The Fugitive with most of the original music replaced with ... something else. There was an enormous outcry about this, and replacement disks, with most of the original music restored, were soon forthcoming.
Warners released Season 1 of Kung Fu in fake widescreen. There was an enormous outcry about this, and although they didn't re-issue Season 1, at least Warners reverted to the original aspect ratio for Seasons 2 & 3.
Roxbury's original DVD series producer, Kirk Hallam, admitted in an interview that Roxbury was forced to use videotape for a few episodes of the first DVD release. “There was some urgency,” he said. “We were trying to meet the street date and get them out before the holidays. We found we were not able to locate all the fine-grain masters in time to do that. They’re in vaults all up and down the East Coast. But we have them now.” Source:
http://route66news.com/2008/01/17/a-chat-with-kirk-hallam/
I don't care whether it's laziness, ignorance or expensiveness that caused Shout! to release something that doesn't improve on Roxbury's releases, when superior source material clearly exists. I'm simply hoping that if enough of us complain about it, something might be done.
This isn't some half-forgotten 1970s sitcom-shot-on-videotape we're talking about here.

 

[smithb]

I don't know that I can agree with this, Chris. Recent history in this area demonstrates that if you make enough noise, things can happen.

Rarely, but yes complaining can sometimes have an impact. And i have no problem with that. But generally it only works when fault can cleary be shown that can be fixed. Lets look at your examples:

Roxbury's initial release of Route 66 Season 1 Vol 2, had episodes 16-30 formatted in fake widescreen. There was an enormous outcry about this, and Roxbury, after initially coming out with an absurd explanation which included the statement "since the restoration process utilized the original 35mm film assets, the goal was to do a high definition transfer, updating the aspect ratio for broadcast on new HD TVs ... which requires an update to the 16x9 aspect ratio for new HD TV Broadcast and future Digital Media delivery", were finally persuaded to see the error of their ways, and included those episodes in their correct aspect ratio when they later released the Complete Season 1 box set.

Roxbury incorrectly formatted the source they were given. They did not have to acquire a new source but just use what they had and fix the formatting. There was a cost to that and they pushed that on the consumer in the sale of a new product. They did not replace what was out there and they did not pay to aquire new prints from another source

Stephen Bowie wrote about this at length, in his excellent Classic TV History blog:
http://classictvhistory.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/86-this-66-the-tv-classic-route-66-hits-a-dead-end-on-the-hi-def-highway/
CBS, meanwhile, released Season 2 of The Fugitive with most of the original music replaced with ... something else. There was an enormous outcry about this, and replacement disks, with most of the original music restored, were soon forthcoming..

Here again, we have someone fixing what they did while using the same source material they started from. Now CBS being a studio and having the best source material available and the financial backing to do it was able to fix the product and offer a replacement program. Plus, you have experts on the material identifying where the issues were in specific episodes.

Warners released Season 1 of Kung Fu in fake widescreen. There was an enormous outcry about this, and although they didn't re-issue Season 1, at least Warners reverted to the original aspect ratio for Seasons 2 & 3.

Same as above, a studio with the best source and just fixing what they incorrectly produced.

Roxbury's original DVD series producer, Kirk Hallam, admitted in an interview that Roxbury was forced to use videotape for a few episodes of the first DVD release. “There was some urgency,” he said. “We were trying to meet the street date and get them out before the holidays. We found we were not able to locate all the fine-grain masters in time to do that. They’re in vaults all up and down the East Coast. But we have them now.” Source:
]http://route66news.com/2008/01/17/a-chat-with-kirk-hallam//quote]

Question here is can we believe that he had them. I can see better source material being available from Sony in vaults, but did they have access to them. Someone else reported Roxbury got the prints from the producers estate (not someone I would think having vaults on both coasts). Or was it just an excuse, i don't know.

I don't care whether it's laziness, ignorance or expensiveness that caused Shout! to release something that doesn't improve on Roxbury's releases, when superior source material clearly exists. I'm simply hoping that if enough of us complain about it, something might be done. This isn't some half-forgotten 1970s sitcom-shot-on-videotape we're talking about here.

Sure, laziness and ignorance is worth complaining about. However, expense is not. This is a business and they need to stay in business to give a future releases. We don't need Shout! going under like Infinity either. If you want to "ring the bell" to garner support for getting a better release that is fine, but just saying there are better prints available is not enough. There needs to be evidence supporting laziness and ignorance and not an expense that prohibited them from moving forward. Then Shout! might get pushed to some action.

 

[Jack P]

The thought that Shout! is being lazy seems to take precedence over the possibility that it just wasn't an option due to the expense. Sure laziness is a possibility but expense sure seems like a more logical reason. Unless someone can offer evidence to the contrary I will assume a cost issue.

Then why doesn't Shout simply say so? I think what's getting lost in the shuffle here is the fact that what generates so much negative feeling about Shout isn't the mere fact that substandard quality episodes are getting released, it's because *they themselves* raised the expectations level with their own words. If Shout had said absolutely nothing up to this point and didn't have their own words to be hoisted on time and again, that would be one thing. The bottom line is their spokesman made comments and we simply chose to take him at his word for it (though said spokesman has a track record of demonstrating why that shouldn't be the case). Maybe getting hold of the better quality episodes isn't an option for them, but improving their PR isn't going to be a financial drain on them.

 

[vnisanian2001]

I'm shocked Brian Ward hasn't been fired for being so deceptive towards his fans. And sorry, but I don't buy the belief that he was mistaken.

 

[smithb]

Then why doesn't Shout simply say so? I think what's getting lost in the shuffle here is the fact that what generates so much negative feeling about Shout isn't the mere fact that substandard quality episodes are getting released, it's because *they themselves* raised the expectations level with their own words. If Shout had said absolutely nothing up to this point and didn't have their own words to be hoisted on time and again, that would be one thing. The bottom line is their spokesman made comments and we simply chose to take him at his word for it (though said spokesman has a track record of demonstrating why that shouldn't be the case). Maybe getting hold of the better quality episodes isn't an option for them, but improving their PR isn't going to be a financial drain on them.

We are all allowed our own interpretations of what was said. My view is that they made vague statements that some chose to view positively and others (myself included) did not. We both took them at their word, but came back wih different conclusions. So we obviously disagree on that interpretation.
However, I completely agree on the PR point. Lots of marketing jargon comes out but little honest information on what is going on behind the scene's is generally provided. Especially, related to issue and problems that might gain customer understanding. Again, this is not limited to Shout! but seems to be a general industry perspective across a varirty of product types. Take CBS and the Fugitive problems for example.

 

[smithb]

I'm shocked Brian Ward hasn't been fired for being so deceptive towards his fans. And sorry, but I don't buy the belief that he was mistaken.

If everyone in a product marketing position were fired tomorrow for putting out vague comments and not correcting readers who misreported their intent, there would be an abundance of people out of work in a very short time. While maybe not a bad idea in theory, the reality is that this is not an unusual business practice.
Personally, i always look suspiciously at vague comments. If positive news is to be provided, I expect it to be clearly "shouted from the mountain tops" and not left up to individual interpretation to deternmine positive and/or negative perspectives.
In this case, I would have expected comments like:
- New transfers with superior quality then what was provided before
- The first 15 episodes completely remastered from a 35mm source instead of the 16mm ource previously used
- The new prints look better then ever or excellent/great.
Not just comments like:
- we receive our prints from the owner and not the previous distributor
- the prints look good.

 

[jim_falconer]

Or, Shout! could have said from the start:

'We will be porting over the same exact prints that were used for the Roxbury release. The good news is we have gotten our hands on an excellent set of prints for season 4'

 

[smithb]

Or, Shout! could have said from the start:
'We will be porting over the same exact prints that were used for the Roxbury release.  The good news is we have gotten our hands on an excellent set of prints for season 4'

I believe they were basically provided the same source prints to work from. During the new encoding process they probably had an opportunity to make a few tweaks here and there. Also, i got the impression that some shows had multiple prints to select from. If true, then the potential for vast improvements were really not possible, which is why we ended up with basically the same result as Roxbury. However, I think all of this provided them with an opportunity to be vague in their marketing response.
In the end, I agree with your assessment. I think it would have been better to be more upfront to limit expectations.

 

[jdee28]

It's interesting that the repeats of Route 66 that have been airing on RTV seem to be sourced from whatever was given to Roxbury. Is this the only way we'll ever see this classic show, in substandard transfers? No pristine prints?
I hope one of the Encore channels eventually gets a hold of it; maybe they will foot the bill for new transfers, like with The Virginian.

 

[ChrisALM]

Hi Nick,

I was not advocating that we should not complain. In this case with Route 66, I am saying I am disappointed in the quality of the release and I do not plan to purchase the set right now. However, I do not know that Shout was lazy, incompetent, doesn't care or had no way of getting a better set of prints. When I heard the disc count for this release some time ago, I had this sinking feeling about what might be coming and I did not preorder it. So, I am not totally surprised by this.

Shout said they had acquired the rights to the Route 66 series. I was hopeful that we would get the better prints (that many have referred to seeing) used for this new set. It appears that did not happen. At some point, we may know more about all of this, and I will be interested to hear what Shout has to say.

 

[Noir Voyeur]

Hi Chris,
We're definitely on the same page. I just picked up on your comment "In this TVonDVD world, what I would like and what I can get is sometimes far apart. I have learned to live with that" ... but didn't really notice your parting comment: " - most of the time."
I will readily concede that I have at times looked at movies & TV series episodes I've bought on DVD and thought "well, that's a crappy transfer" but not been too bothered about it.
In this case, however, I'm definitely leaning towards the "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this any more" end of the spectrum.
As far as Shout! explaining their inability to acquire better prints or masters, well, I'm not holding my breath. There are 2 x separate threads on the "Community" section of their own website. Series producer Brian Ward participated early on, but has not responded to concerns raised in those threads since the release of the Complete 4 Season Box Set more than a month ago. At a guess I'd say it's likely Shout's marketing department told him to shut up and leave communications with customers to them, and they're probably waiting for initial Amazon sales results to come in before taking a position. (I admit this is just speculation.)
Shout!'s original press release (dated 11/07/2011) included the following:
"ROUTE 66 is one of our favorite TV series from the 1960s, and is an American classic," stated Shout! Factory's founding partners. "As we are aggressively expanding our purchasing libraries of premiere television and films, this deal exemplifies the type of strategic acquisitions we plan to actively pursue."
...and, in the "About Shout!" section:
"...These riches are the result of a creative acquisitions mandate that has established the company as a hotbed of cultural preservation and commercial reinvention."
(Full text at http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Route-66-Shout-Factory-Acquires-Rights/16184 )
That's quite a bit of spin, right there, ain't it. Well, the "hotbed of cultural preservation" seems to have been less-than-hot when it came to sourcing superior source elements of those crucial first dozen episodes. Brad Smith is right, we don't know the reasons and can only speculate, but at the end of the day, for whatever reason, Shout! has done little more than re-issue Roxbury's releases of Seasons 1-3 in better packaging, and a great opportunity has been lost.

 

[jim_falconer]

very well stated Nick...