Sharp Z90U vs. Panny 300U (1 Viewer)

[RAF]

I would like to point out that there are many resources on the Internet regarding our common passion, Home Theater, and each of them has its strengths and weaknesses. And what makes this even more interesting is the fact that what some people would consider "strengths" are another person's "weaknesses." Beauty is in the mind of the beholder, and all that.

What I'm trying to say is that there is room for more than one forum, more than one point of view, more than one area of expertise. I would agree with Brian that at the moment AVS is a richer source of information regarding HT projectors, and this is not surprising since the genesis of that forum was an AV hardware supplier. And since the origins of the HTF lie in movie fans, over here the general consensus is that there is more of an emphasis on what we use the machines for rather than on the machines themselves.

I've been a member of both forums (and many others) from the start and I participate in them regularly. (Naturally, my duties here require more participation here, but that doesn't reflect on the quality of either site.) When I was doing research on front projectors AVS was, at that time, the premier place to go for information and links. On the other hand, if I want to discuss movies, I turn to HTF.

And I'm not the only one who frequents both forums by any means. There are lots of "experts" on a wide variety of subjects at both sites and using all the resources at your disposal makes a lot of sense to me.

This is not an "us" vs. "them" issue. While it is natural to try to help fellow HT'ers by pointing them in the direction of possible resources, it obviously makes sense to explore as many avenues as possible. But making it into a competition does a disservice to the many highly qualified personnel who are available at both sites. It's just a question of knowing who to ask and where.

The bottom line is that one chooses the location that provides the best style for their taste. To some, AVS is too business-like. To others, that's an asset. To some, the HTF is too friendly and less acerbic. To others, this is not what they are looking for when they are looking for answers to specific questions. I could go on and on about the stylistic differences between the two (and other) forums but I don't see the need to, since most people are already aware of them. The real point is, once again, that there is no reason to draw a line in the sand and ask people to stand on one side or the other. The beach is open to everyone (as long as one follows some general guidelines at both places.)

My 2 (forum) cents.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

The bottom line is that one chooses the location that provides the best style for their taste. To some, AVS is too business-like. To others, that's an asset. To some, the HTF is too friendly and less acerbic. To others, this is not what they are looking for when they are looking for answers to specific questions.

Agreed 100%. But that assumes at all members of HTF know about and have visited whatever other forum is being discussed. I was a member of HTF for 2 years before I even heard about AVS. I just wanted to make sure everyone had the same opportunity to familiarize themselves with both resources in case they were not aware. I've had several HTFrs pm me from time to time to say "Thanks for letting me know about AVS! Now I know so much more about digital projectors" so it's not ubiquitous that everyone at HTF is already familiar.

In any case...as I said earlier...given my motivation which I hope I've made clear I did think that I *was* acting under normal-forum guidlines. I'll be more careful in the future

 

[chris_clem]

And in the case of the Administrators vs. David. I, as self-appointed member of the jury, find the defendant: Not Gulty

I, for one am a newly-hooked and obsessed home-theater enthusiast and have been reading posts here at HTF almost non-stop for about 4 months now. (first for my 5.1 setup, then for some cool dvds and players and now for info on a FPTV….). IMHO, David’s posts have been quite informative and I am now going to look at “that other forum” for some FP info BUT, I love the stuff here at HTF too much to miss out on all the info here so I very much doubt that I will “switch” to that forum in favor of this one. There is enough room for many sources of information to exist! Lighten up guys, he wasn’t being mean-spirited or dumping on this wonderful site!

Now that all this is beaten to the ground, can we please get back to the topic at hand? I am quite eager to what others have to say about this thread as these two projectors are on my short list of FP’s to consider.

Does anyone have a formal or even casual review of these two FP's (not necessarily pitted against each other as what would be the chances of that?!?) A link would be cool if no one gets sore:b but it could be posted on this thread too, I guess.

Andrew, care to elaborate on your comparisons? You seem to be the only person so far to have had experience with both models

 

[Jack Briggs]

Oh please. Never once was this an issue of the HTF staff "versus" one of our esteemed members. I know your intentions are good, Chris, so I guess we can let the matter drop here.

 

[alan halvorson]

Here is a review of the Sharp Z90U at Projector Central.

 

[Cees Alons]

Never once was this an issue of the HTF staff "versus" one of our esteemed members

Hear, hear!
It could even cost me a beer...! (rhyme almost unintentional).

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Beer sounds good. I like something dark and smooth with a touch of spice (yes...I'm talking about beer). Where should we all meet?

 

[RAF]

While I don't have specific experience with the two projectors referred to (and to bring this thread back on track now that everyone has hoisted some brews together) I do have a general comment on the "black" issues regarding the comparison between CRT and LCDs and DLPs.

As some of you know, I had many on-going discussions regarding the purported "lack of black" with my then new Sony LCD. What I was seeing with my own two eyes in my HT was challenged, sometimes very vociferously. I claimed that, all things considered, the blacks were not an issue to me with my VW10HT. As I've stated before, absolute black and perceived black levels are not the same thing. The VW10HT produced a very bright picture at the time (3 years ago) and the difference between the bright white areas and the dark areas gave the appearance of black on my screen. I also noted that in a movie theater (and was backed up by some industry experts) when viewing film you never see absolute black so all this talk about no light at all actually doesn't necessarily correlate with a "theatrical" experience. As a funny sidelight, after the battle lines had been drawn (over on that "other" forum) one of the owners actually acquired a VW10HT and all of a sudden people began to listen to me.


And now that I own a fine DLP projector (CL-710) I'm even more impressed with the black levels it produces. In fact, where I defended the VW10HT as being "fine" for black level in my experience, I'm willing to state that my DLP projector has EXCELLENT black levels - at least as good as anything I've seen in a movie theater. In other words (to bring this rambling full circle to the original topic), if you are looking at one of the new DLP models you are most likely going to be happy - very happy. While I understand the loyalty of CRT owners and proponents, I think a very strong case is being made for the latest generation of fixed pixel projectors, and when you factor in the weight, edge to edge brightness, maintenance and adjustment, etc. the pendulum, in my estimation, has swung to the side of the fixed pixel camp.

In other words, KenBo, you are on the right track.

 

[Robert James Clark]

I also noted that in a movie theater (and was backed up by some industry experts) when viewing film you never see absolute black so all this talk about no light at all actually doesn't necessarily correlate with a "theatrical" experience.

Very true, and don't forget that a movie theater is also a "bulb" (and transmissive) technology, like home digital projectors...

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Agreed.

Personally, I felt that the blacks on the Sony 10HT aren't quite as satisfying as "projected film" blacks at least on dark scenes where there is little bright light going on to trick your eye into seeing darker blacks by using the white-level as a reference point. Not terrible (and certainly watchable) just not *satisfying* IMO.

Most of the new DLP projectors with the HD2 chip that get around 2000:1 CR seem to produce blacks either as good or better than projected film. The Sharp 10000 produces blacks deep enough that I didn't find the letterboxing bars on 2.35:1 material distracting...something I could never have said when watching 2.35 movies on a 16x9 screen with most LCD projectors (and even HD1 DLP projectors).

Once you reach the "as good as projected film" black level then it's just up to the individual to decide where they personally feel satisfied. For me personally, in terms of color saturation and black level, I like the fact that home-theater projection can actually look *better* than the often washed-out image on the big screen at my theater. Images have much more richness and depth in a well calibrated home-thater with a good projector and I think it's ok to enjoy that...even though it's not trying to replicated the usual projected-film impression (as some have stated, deep inky-blacks are never seen at your local cinema).

However, for me I like to think that I'm being faithful to the original film print/negative...NOT necessarily the image projected at my local movie-house. No matter how you slice/dice it...it all comes down to personal preference.

As good as the blacks are now with many DLP projectors...I can't wait to see what happens next with HD2.5 or HD3 or even SXRD!

dave

 

[DaViD Boulet]

BTW,

RAF,

When you gonna update your HT website with some new pics of your new projector with some screen-shots? The 10HT screen shots look amazing but we'd *love* to see some from the new projector

p.s. what's the skinny on that DLP projector of yours...is that a 4x3 machine? Are you running it with HTPC?

 

[KenBo]

Hey all,

Thanks for the comments, and getting back on topic. To update, I went to NBT Electronics and saw the Panny in action (Thanks John), and I was quite impressed. It was better than I thought it would be.

Now, I have had the good fortune of being able to bring an Infocus X1 home for a 1 week demo. Out of the box, it was pretty impressive. Unfortunately, my wife and I seem to be susceptable to the "rainbow effect" that many others have complained about regarding this projector. It's unfortunate, because I would have been happy to spend $1500 CDN on the X1. Now, if I can somehow get a Panny at home for a weekend or something, just to see how it stands up in my environment...

Ken

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I see the rainbow too. You're not alone...that's one reason why these projectors you're considering are budget priced...it must cost more to impliment the faster color-wheel/chip.

If the projector is very bright (like on the Infocus 7200) I still see *distracting* rainbows even with the 5x wheel. However, projector that are a little less bright (Sharp 10000) show hardly any rainbow artifacts with the same wheel/chip speed...and they still are plenty bright to light a 100" firehawk.

So all is not lost...and DLP projector are falling rapidly in price. Can you wait until the Spetember show? That should really shake things up and a few better-quality projectors should trickle down to your price bracket (or maybe you can increase your budget a little...or both?)

dave

 

[KenBo]

I can definately wait until September. My basement isn't even finished yet! I've found the Epson Powerlite S1 at Costco up here, so I may give it a try and see how it compares to the Infocus. It's an LCD projector, so no rainbows.

Ken

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Ken,

if you *can* wait then you *should8 wait. Whatever you spend on a PJ now will be money you wish you had to buy something better with the new crop of machines. Usually there's that old "buy vs wait" argument...but this time it appears it really might be worth waiting.

-dave

 

[RAF]

BTW,

RAF,

When you gonna update your HT website with some new pics of your new projector with some screen-shots? The 10HT screen shots look amazing but we'd *love* to see some from the new projector

p.s. what's the skinny on that DLP projector of yours...is that a 4x3 machine? Are you running it with HTPC?

DaViD B.
(Sorry for not replying sooner. A couple of Broadband DSL issues - now resolved - kept my on-line time to a minimum the past two days)

Yes, I'm way overdue for updating my web site (HT and family portions) but certain personal crises intervened over the past year. But I'll be attending to this once I have time to run my new projector through its paces.

To whet your appetite, let me just say that the Runco CL-710 (a GEN 3 HD2 chip model) is a native 16:9 resolution device that has exceeded my expectations so far. The picture is, to me, stunning. As satisfied as I was with my VW10HT (tweaked to perfection in a ambient light-controlled environment) the Runco is another step upward. In fact, in a side by side comparison with my Pioneer Elite Pro-45 (old but still cranking out a great CRT RP picture) the colors are just as rich and the black levels are comparable. The scaler in the 710 is remarkable - so much so that I'm finding it hard to see an appreciable difference between using the internal scaler of the 710 and using an outboard scalar (a Runco PFP-7 ViVix Pixel For Pixel Processor). I thought that the PFP-7 would provide a great increase in picture quality (it lists for $5000) but the stand-alone CL-710 is so good that only the most critical viewer of film would be able to tell the difference. True, the PFP-7 adds a host of adjustable parameters (like blanking in four directions, image shift, light level for side bars in 4:3 mode, etc.) but with the native resolution of the 710 and my standard installation (16:9 screen) a lot of this goes unused.

Unless I use the pass-through mode on the projector (for sources like HDTV) the internal scaler on the CL-710 is far better than that of all my DVD players (including a Denon 2900, a Sony 9000ES and a Panny RP-91) so I feed it interlaced material and let it (the projector) do its thing. And what it does it does very well! The only tradeoff that I've seen so far by using interlaced output from my RP-91 is that I lose the auto-aspect feature of that player (which I assume only works with progressive output). But the aspect controls on the remote of the Runco are so convenient that I don't miss it a bit.

The bottom line: Out of the box, standing on its own, and taking interlaced output from the players, the Runco CL-710 is a blockbuster.

I'm a very happy camper. Stay tuned for a full report as time permits. I've got to tear myself away from watching movies first.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Looking forward to an in-depth report/review on your site when you get a chance