Separates vs. receiver confirmation (1 Viewer)

[Kevin C Brown]

Ric and Ajay- Go pick up any issue of SID. Society for Information Display. Right there in black and white (and color!) that the eye is much more sensitive to changes between displays, than the ears in regards to sound. But you might have to search for some primer for beginners.
Or check out www.sid.org .

 

[AjayM]

And again Kevin, go to a TV you've never calibrated before and try and get even close to the simple calibration that you do with something like Video Essentials. If that isn't enough proof for you jump into the service menu and wipe out some of those things and then set them all back just by eye. This should be soooo easy since the eye is so sensitive to changes. All those ISF guys carrying around expensive equipment must just be blind and such, right? So can you calibrate your TV just by eye Kevin?

Now I can't get within 1db on my audio side, but I can within 2db (at least that was how far off I was when I calibrated by ear then by meter last weekend when I changed out my pre/pro). Now when I try and calibrate video I'm so far off I don't even bother trying.

And again, are you saying that when I listen to audio components 95+% of the time any difference is due to the placebo effect, yet when I see a well setup video display that is not at all placebo effect? It's that cut and dry? Oh and BTW if you search through the net a little while you will find a ton of real scientific papers talking about the human senses. You know what they say, that you are correct, that the sense of sight is the most developed sense that we as humans have. You know what's interesting, hearing comes in at a very close second. That little bit of difference between the two senses must surely explain things like placebo effects between mid-fi and high-fi gear.

Or maybe I'm a "golden-eyed" videophile....

Andrew

 

[Mark Austin]

RicP,

I've set my levels by ear before and never been more than 1db off on any speaker.

You, and me both. I hear you. When I help calibrate someone's system, I always make sure to get a shot.

I hadn't calibrated my system in over 6 months, and I recently placed two new amps in, and nailed the calibration by ear, no changes.

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

Mark,

I don't see why you continually post that ABX quote as some sort of defense of your opinion about audio components. It is irrelevant to this discussion. Nobody is trying to prove that components A and B are the same--the price tag makes it obvious that they are not the same; rather, some people have the opinion that in a blindfolded test between some components there would not a statistically significant number of people who would be able to distinguish between A and B with any statistically-greater certainty than a coin flip.

If I put a hundred audiophiles in a room and none of them can with statistical accuracy distinguish between A and B--you are exactly right, that doesn't prove that A and B are the same. But it doesn't really MATTER if they are the same in that case, does it!

--Steve

 

[JaleelK]

No Jaleel, the so called goldenears can and do take these tests from time to time, and the results are usually not going in your favor. It's just when one person can't hear a difference it's published, why is it published? Because it's a nice story how these mega-high end companies are screwing the mass's with their so-called better sound. It's not a good story when a piece of gear that costs 10-100 times what another piece costs and there is a difference in sound (and generally that one is chosen over the cheaper mass-market stuff).

Have you ever done one of these Double blind, level matched tests? What is your experience level in this? If so please describe the test, what components were used, how did you achieve a true Double Blind condition,etc. Or are you just talking about what you read on the internet and have no personal experience in this matter? Running a 2-second wav file from the internet is pretty far from anything close to science.

______________________________________

I personally have not conducted my own DBT, I don't think I need to to know the truth, I don't to have perform bypass surgery to know that procedure works for heart problems. DBT test are used in the medical field, blind test are even used in food and wine test, it just more scientific and reliable way of determining if diferenced are detectable between to things, for the sake of our discussion those things are audio components. I have read the data from the audio experts who have and the evidence is overwhelming, It also is plain common sense and truth. There is no way you can convince me that sighted non level matched test are more reliable than Double Blind level matched test.

I disagree with you, the PCABX comparator is scientific and a reliable way of doing your own AB comparisons, thanks to digital techonology we are capable of sampling all kinds of sounds including the sounds of different amps, DACS, audio codecs etc. What is not scientific is to believe something sounds better just because it cost more and has a fancy name brand. How can anyone who proclaims to be a scientist believe that sighted non-level matched test are better of determinig sonic differences between audio sources than DBT.

If you say that goldenears usually come out on top in DBT, cite me a case when that has happened. All goldenears do is rely on mysticism and voo doo audio, they attack objective scientic approach to audio like DBT and PCABX.

If you read the review on the Theta Voyager DVD, you will see what some high-end companies are really selling you. How in the world can a company charge $10,000 for progressive scan DVD player that really isn't better any than a $600. mass market player, read the review. I didn't perform the test, the guys at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity did, I just used the data they provided from the progressive scan DVD player shoot out to reach my conclusion. They try to charge you 10K off of a name, in this case that name is "Theta" unfortunately some consumers who purchase in that market believe they are getting a superior product based upon that alone or that it cost more and its high-end, but when guys really looked at the players progressive scan performance, they rated the $600. DVDO Iscan higher than the Theta.

 

[Mike Knapp]

I heard my name!
Im not going to get involved in this debate again....you guys carry on.
One very crucial statement from Jaleel though

I personally have not conducted my own DBT, I don't think I need to to know the truth

Just as well, Using a DBT to search for audio truth is like staking out the local church in a prostitute sting.
Mike

 

[AjayM]

Quote:

Ahhh, so this one example is obviously an indicator of the whole high end industry, right? Check out the article on the Ayre DVD player, it costs a bit more than the Theta in fact. And you know what, it's based on the Panasonic (I think anyways) transport! Have you ever heard one? I know you think all gear sounds the same, so maybe that's not a good question. So maybe you should go read the reviews of it. And you know, a $10k DVD probably will never perform better on the video side than even a $600-1000 DVD player, why? Because 480p is a fairly low limit resolution wise. And almost everybody is using the same damn chipsets that the video is processed in.
So the Theta must represent how EVERY high end manufacture screws people out of money. Of course you didn't read the reviews on the Lexicon MC12 and how everybody glows about it and how it represents a good value, you haven't seen people talk about Diva's speakers and how the represent a good value. You've never seen reviews here on HTF with SVSubwoofers and how they represent a huge value (but that new SS is pretty pricey). Ever see a review on Magnepan speakers, they can get pretty high up there in the price range as well, and represent a huge value.
So Jaleel, why don't you give us an example of the equipment in your own system. I'm guessing that you have what, a $100 DD reciever, a $69 DVD player, etc. Since anything that costs more money must surely be the same as the above.
Andrew

 

[Ted Lee]

jaleel - i think i know where you are coming from. okay, actually i don't know, but i think i understand what you are trying to say here.
i also believe that scientific testing is a solid way to go. i also believe that i personally don't have a very good ear for this stuff...at least not yet. i certainly don't have the money! but i would never begrudge someone else who does have good hearing or can afford the good stuff.
what everyone is saying and that even i myself have observed is that you are always so quick to slam anyone who says that their hi-end gear is better. it's like you're purposely trying to "rain on their parade"!
if you truly believe what you're saying, you're going to have to back up your statements better then you have been so far.
here's the main problem.
you've already told us you don't believe in anything that isn't done using a dbt, but then you state that you've never even tried it yourself! that just doesn't make sense! how can you so adamantly believe in something you've never tried. :frowning:
you're also not addressing a lot of peoples questions.
i don't mean to harp on you and i certainly do not mean any offense. i'm just trying to provide a different 'angle' on why you're getting blown up here.
i think if you can just realize that it's "different strokes for different folks" then you'll be a happier camper.
good luck bro...

 

[RicP]

So Jaleel, why don't you give us an example of the equipment in your own system

Don't hold your breath Ajay. I believe Jaleel suffers from the "Do as I say, Not as I do" affliction.

 

[JaleelK]

jaleel - i think i know where you are coming from. okay, actually i don't know, but i think i understand what you are trying to say here.

i also believe that scientific testing is a solid way to go. i also believe that i personally don't have a very good ear for this stuff...at least not yet. i certainly don't have the money! but i would never begrudge someone else who does have good hearing or can afford the good stuff.

what everyone is saying and that even i myself have observed is that you are always so quick to slam anyone who says that their hi-end gear is better. it's like you're purposely trying to "rain on their parade"!

if you truly believe what you're saying, you're going to have to back up your statements better then you have been so far.

here's the main problem.

you've already told us you don't believe in anything that isn't done using a dbt, but then you state that you've never even tried it yourself! that just doesn't make sense! how can you so adamantly believe in something you've never tried.>>>>>

I only tried it using the PCABX comparator,comparing Bryston amps and Parasound. But never with a with the ABX hardware, I don't think they make them anymore.

you're also not addressing a lot of peoples questions.>>>

Well, there are quite a bit of questions and I try to answer as many as I can.

i don't mean to harp on you and i certainly do not mean any offense. i'm just trying to provide a different 'angle' on why you're getting blown up here.>>

I'm not offended at all, you have a right to defend your position in every way.

i think if you can just realize that it's "different strokes for different folks" then you'll be a happier camper.>>>

I know that, if folks want to throw away money on things like overprice overkill amps, go right ahead.

 

[AjayM]

So when you put him in a room with a Mark Levinson setup and a Denon setup and blind fold him and make him hear the two setups he hears no difference because his mind believes he should here none.

My questions to all the others here is if this could qualify as a placebo effect?

Yep, sure does. Bias in testing works both ways, which is another reason why a DBT when you know what you're being tested on (say between 2 different amps or wires, etc) doesn't work in the audio realm. Let alone the fact that conducting a true DBT is almost next to impossible in the audio world as well.

Andrew

 

[Legairre]

Mark,
You couldn't possibly be saying that he suffers from a reverse of the placebo effect that he claims we all have? Let me see. He reads a bunch of articles. Makes up his mind ahead of time. Then listens and says "nope both systems sound exactly the same". Sounds like he has the old placebo effect to me.

 

[Mark Austin]

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm........

 

[RicP]

My questions to all the others here is if this could qualify as a placebo effect

Unquestionably. The so-called "Placebo effect" works in both directions.

What's worse, is that anyone that is of the "negative" Placebo cannot be proven wrong! So they can make statements about theres no difference here or there, and there's no test to prove otherwise. How do you prove that someone hears a difference?

That's why I think that it's the hypocrites way out to make all these claims and then 1) admit that you've never even done a proper test yourself 2) refuse to list the gear that you actually own 3) Make mass and ridiculous generalizations based on hearsay and isolated anecdotes.

But hey...to each his own

 

[JaleelK]

So you are just relying on what somebody else says, even though there is a huge amount of debate over what you are saying (that mid-fi gear sounds the same as high-fi gear).>>>

I'm not relying on what they have said, but what has actually be tested and established already. As I said before, do you have to be a heart surgeon to know that heart surgery is effective at treating patients with heart problems. I'll even make simple, something like viagra, I have never used it, but I know it works, don't you know the medical field use DBT? Are you going to tell me you never consider any valid or proven unless you did it yourself?

But would you go in for surgery if say more than 50% of the doctors said the surgery didn't work and that you are just wasting your money for nothing?>>>

That is irrelevant to my point, what I'm saying is that, you don't need to perform a test yourself to obtain facts, if some other competent person has done it, you can use that data obtained by that other person to argue the facts, attorney's in the legal profession do it everyday. I'm arguing here just as a trial attorney would do when he puts forth expert testimony to establish the facts in a case.

It's common sense to believe that a piece of mass-market gear that is built to hit a certain price point will sound the same as a piece of high end gear that will use better components, tighter tolerances, etc. Yep, sounds like common sense to me.>>>

See here, your statement is evidence of your bias, "Mid-fi gear" High-end gear" the very words are bias, that is why level matched DBT are needed, that type of bias need to be taken out of the equation when comparing two audio components, don't you understand that, how bias can influence you judgment? That is simple logic and common sense, you don't need to conduct a DBT yourself to know that's a fact. As far as better components being used in high-end, maybe, but does it alway result in better performance, the answer to that is no, see the Theta Voyager DVD review?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with you, the PCABX comparator is scientific and a reliable way of doing your own AB comparisons, thanks to digital techonology we are capable of sampling all kinds of sounds including the sounds of different amps, DACS, audio codecs etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you are saying that your $100 sound card and what maybe $150 speakers on your computer will give you the same resolution as say a $10,000 audio system? So if you load up a CD in your computer, then take that same CD to your audio system they will sound exactly the same? That's what you are saying, correct? >>>

Yes, don't take my word for it, many in the audio industry, including Dolby Labs have recognized the PCABX website as an effective means of doing scientific listening test. Hey, if you use the PCABX comparator you might be able to detect some audio difference, others have, I couldn't when I compared two amp samples.

Ummm, who said anything about price here? I've heard lots of components that sound very good that beat the price/performance average.>>>

I'm saying, price and name brand and sound levels influence people's perception of sound quality. Sighted listening test, are simple unreliable because of those factors.

Oh and I've never met a scientist that first didn't do his own experiments on something he feels so passionately about, and I've never met a scientist who is so closed minded about a subject.>>>

I'm not a scientist,I'm joe consumer who happens to rely on scientific evidence proven and established by scientist. I don't believe in Voo Doo, withcraft, mysticism or sighted uncontrolled listening, non-matched listening test.

Oh I won't even go into PCABX, if you can't see the problems with that setup then you definately don't WANT to see/hear a difference. As to the DBT, that has been debated over and over again, you like to bring up the medical industry, but last time I read about any medical DBT they usually try and get a large sample section, they rely on more tests, etc. The ABX website is fun to read, they pulled 7 whole people out of somewhere (doesn't say where, so much for science and documentation of your experiment) and gave them how many listening tests? Ooops, it doesn't say, they're missing more documentation. Hmmm, if a group of doctors ran DBT's like that they would be laughed at.>>>>

The truth of the matter, audiophiles have always been afraid of scientific listening test, I read many of their comments about, while attacking DBT they never introduce another or better way to determine audio differences between components, they want us to believe their flawed ears is somehow more reliable than scientific controlled listening test, that sighted non-level matched listening test are more reliable.

Ahhh, so this one example is obviously an indicator of the whole high end industry, right? Check out the article on the Ayre DVD player, it costs a bit more than the Theta in fact. And you know what, it's based on the Panasonic (I think anyways) transport! Have you ever heard one? I know you think all gear sounds the same, so maybe that's not a good question. So maybe you should go read the reviews of it. And you know, a $10k DVD probably will never perform better on the video side than even a $600-1000 DVD player, why? Because 480p is a fairly low limit resolution wise. And almost everybody is using the same damn chipsets that the video is processed in.>>

No I don't think gear all sounds the same. No , I have not heard or seen the Ayre DVD player, were can read about the scientic test results of its performance? Also, I don't think they carry that brand at my near by hi-fi shop out here. Anyway, as far as the Theta player goes, they are the ones making the claims of superior performance, if you are going to charge someone 10K for a player you should be able to back that up, but this is what happens when folks don't take you Theta's sales pitch but actually put that claim to the test.

So the Theta must represent how EVERY high end manufacture screws people out of money. Of course you didn't read the reviews on the Lexicon MC12 and how everybody glows about it and how it represents a good value, you haven't seen people talk about Diva's speakers and how the represent a good value. You've never seen reviews here on HTF with SVSubwoofers and how they represent a huge value (but that new SS is pretty pricey). Ever see a review on Magnepan speakers, they can get pretty high up there in the price range as well, and represent a huge value.>>

I've seen all the testimony on the SVS subs and their subs have have been tested and measured by Mr. Nousaine(who has conducted DBT, blind level matched test) and his test results seem to back up what people are saying about them.

Lexicon usualy makes prepros and I believe pre/pros influence sound more than amps and cable wires. Speakers influence sound, they are made intentionally that way.

So Jaleel, why don't you give us an example of the equipment in your own system. I'm guessing that you have what, a $100 DD reciever, a $69 DVD player, etc. Since anything that costs more money must surely be the same as the above.>>

Trust me, my equipment cost more than that, I purchase for features, flexibility and sound quality. I try not to spend too much on useless amps, audio cables/interconnects etc. but more on video components.

 

[RicP]

Emphasis mine.
But I thought everything sounded the same Jaleel? What possible sound quality differences could you be talking about? Please, enlighten us.
Incidentally, doesn't everyone purchase for features, flexibility, and sound quality?

 

[Mark Austin]

Incidentally, doesn't everyone purchase for features, flexibility, and sound quality?

NO!!!

I purchase my gear based on marketing hype, alone.

I don't listen, and I try not to look. I just read the ads in audio magazines, and which ever one reads the coolest, that's what I go for. It's guys like me that proudly keep "high-end" audio in business. Thank you very much.

 

[AjayM]

Quote:

When you purchase for sound quality do you do a level matched DBT for each piece of equipment you are considering? Do you bring them all home, disguise them all, make sure they weigh within a few ounces of each other, disguise the back panels and then do a test?
Andrew

 

[EricHaas]

I am singularly unpersuaded by either viewpoint presented in this thread. While I agree with Jaleel that he does not actually have to perform a DBT himself, I find it interesting that neither he nor those opposing his view are presenting any real authority to back up their position. For those of you who feel strongly one way or the other on this issue, please provide URL's, names of periodicals, books, etc. which contain scientific data regarding people's ability to distinguish, in proper double blind methodology, one type of audio component from the next. And no, I don't mean a quote from some "expert" saying one thing or another. I want to understand the data that the expert is relying on. I hear Jaleel saying there are DBT's which support his view, and his opponents saying the majority of evidence is against his view. Where is this evidence? Until someone is prepared to answer, the opinions stated in this thread are nothing more than unscientific personal observations at best and rank bias at worst.

I have seen very few references in this thread to anything other than what is entirely in the minds of those participating. To his credit, Jaleel mentioned a couple things. However, the fact that one company takes a $600 DVD player, puts it into a new enclosure, and sells it for $10,000, though it raises an eyebrow, does not tend to prove or disprove to any degree of certainly that a $5,000 Krell amp sounds the same as a $700 Denon receiver. I'm sure even Jaleel can appreciate that his citation, though it adds some color and context to his argument, bears no logical force toward his conclusion. Nor should any of us be impressed with a single test showing that one person can't distinguish the sound of 2 amps encoded in a .wav file and played through a pair of computer speakers. OTOH, no one on the other side has conveyed much here other than their own personal experiences. One person did mention something about a test where someone could distinguish one amp from another 10 times out of 12. That kind of information is interesting if somewhat anecdotal. Where can I read about this?

So there is nothing in this thread to sway anyone who has already made up their minds, and nothing to assist someone totally open minded and neutral in forming an opinion. Absent that, it is just people hurling unsubstantiated opinions back and forth.

 

[Larry B]

Eric:

Thank you for what is perhaps the most meaningful, well-articulated response to this contentious topic.

As I stated in an earlier post on "the wire wars," no one ever seems to convince anyone else, which suggests that (1) no one is putting forth compelling arguments, (2) no one is keeping an open mind, or (3) both.

Larry