Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (4 Viewers)

[Nelson Au]

I saw the four videos I could find. Great stuff. Found the video regarding Roddenberry and the idea that he was protecting the voice of the show.Shatner wanted to be a star and Nimoy wanted to be an actor! I can see Nimoy did care about the craft. But it seems to me that Shatner was as talented an actor, just a different kind, but no doubt ambitious.

 

[FanCollector]

Bonanza is a great example of a drama that was closer on the spectrum to Star Trek. It was guest star-oriented, but there were four (five with Hop Sing) regular characters and at least one or two of them would have a major role each week, sometimes even as the central figure. I have seen the show, but I am far from a Bonanza expert. I wonder if there was a lot of rewriting of freelance scripts on Bonanza also since it was sort of in that same category. The stars of the show were kind of notorious for not taking it seriously, but the producers may have been more careful.Yes, I heard Black's distinction that Shatner wanted to be a star and Nimoy wanted to be an actor. It did ring true, not in the sense that Shatner was a bad actor or unconcerned with the work. (I am not sure I would rank him as Nimoy's equal there, but there is lots of evidence that he worked hard and cared about his performance.) But there is also lots of evidence that Shatner was very concerned with the centrality of Kirk's character to all the stories and with Kirk not veering too far into being a character part. Our recent discussion of Nimoy's opinion on The Galileo Seven also seems to support Black's sketch of them. Any one sentence description of two people, especially two artists, is an oversimplification, but I thought Black's quick answer was somewhat illuminating.

 

[Nelson Au]

I only read a little last night, I needed to get some sleep. To add to Black's comment, I was reading the section where Cushman is reviewing the fall out of the first 16 episodes that aired. It has been so many years removed that I sort of forgotten about Spockmania! That of course has been written up as a source of frustration perhaps for William Shatner. But who knew Spock would take off like that! But William Shatner never really should have worried, but at the time, as been rumored, must have caused some rivalry. I'll be looking for more of this in the second book and the story of Nimoy holding out and nearly being replaced. I'm glad they ended up as good friends. Things must have been great though as they had the friendly nations clause in their film (?) contracts IIRC where if one guy got something, the other would get it.I had never read those Asimov comments before, though I think I heard about that article in TV Guide. Would have been interesting had he submitted a story for an episode. The letter Roddenberry wrote back to him was great to see too.

 

[Nelson Au]

On another topic, I saw on another discussion board a thread going over each episode. The guy didn't like Metamorphosis! But he did make a comment that the episode had a subtle commentary on mixed marriages. Interesting, I never read it that way, i read it more about accepting others. The main reason I bring it up is because he said that through out the episode, Commissioner Hedford wears blue leggings and black shoes. But the last shot shoes her wearing green shoes! Before I the saw the screen caps, I thought it might be a sequence that was done when they brought Elinor Donahue back for some additional shots. But the shot is of her and Cochrane waving good bye to Kirk and Spock and McCoy. Apparently he says its very obvious on the blu-rays. I wonder if its just the lighting. I'll have to watch the episode of course. Mr. Scott, if you are still with us,I believe it's your turn for a question.

 

[FanCollector]

Yes, I think whatever issues they had were in the last couple of years of the series. Nicholas Meyer even singled out their friendship as being obvious throughout his experiences on the movies. And they did have that contractual parity starting with the second or third movie.Was he saying that Metamorphosis was critical of mixed marriages? It's interesting...I think Star Trek varies its symbolism and we need to be conscious of when it changes its terms. There are instances when alien races stand in for humans or for different groups of humans and the allegory reflects different parts of humanity. But sometimes, I think Kirk talks about humanity and it's a mistake to read the speeches symbolically. When he talks about all of humanity being connected and responsible to each other in Who Mourns for Adonais?, that isn't meant as a racist speech about separatism. In that case "humanity" just means humanity. I would suggest that Metamorphosis is not against mixed marriages; if anything, Cochrane's learning curve in the episode supports them. (Or is that what the guy on the other board meant the whole time?)

 

[Ockeghem]

Guys,I've been very busy the past couple of days. If anyone has a question they would like to ask, please feel free to do so.

 

[Nelson Au]

Lee, the other guy was saying as you said, that Cochrane's learning curve towards the end of the episode supports the whole idea of mixed marriages. And it's an early example of IDIC.Though in thinking about it, Cochrane didn't really seem to fully accept the Companion until she merged with Miss Hedford. Of course Kirk argues that the Companion can't really know what love is because it wasn't human and could not join with a human. But it did feel affection for Cochran all that time. I'll have to revisit that Adonais speech too. That as another good one! I visit with Cochrane more then Apollo. Scott, I hope you are not too busy and stressing out! I do have a question. But I need to vet all the answers tonight.

 

[Ockeghem]

Nelson,Ask away!

 

[FanCollector]

Yes, Metamorphosis would be one of those instances of humanity meaning exactly that. Cochrane comes to appreciate the Companion, once he gets over his initial shocked reaction, before she joins with Miss Hedford, but they can only join fully when they are both human. So much of Star Trek's definition of humanity is corporeal that the joining was a necessary step--Cochrane wouldn't have stayed otherwise. (Return to Tomorrow, What Are Little Girls Made Of, Is There In Truth No Beauty...Star Trek is pretty strict that you do need bodies!) But I do agree that the message is that ANY human(oid)s from ANY backgrounds can be happy together, which was a moderately forward statement at a time when mixed marriages were still illegal in a number of states in the U.S. There are of course other symbolic interpretations of Metamorphosis, but I think that one is present and intentional.

 

[Ockeghem]

I wish TOS (and subsequent Trek series) had explored non-corporeal life much more than they did. Instances such as what we see in Errand Of Mercy (and a handful of episodes from other series) were very interesting when they did occur.

 

[Nelson Au]

I never analyzed this issue before, that TOS had stressed humanity (corporeal life) as the only way to be in order to connect. I suspect it was either too difficult or expensive to deal with non corporeal life too frequently with the optical effects Scott. It seemed like it was covered a few times: was Trelane and his parents corporeal? The Thesians were not, they can't love! And we know the Organians were not either. Seemed Kolos and the entity in Day of the Dove are related types, but one was too ugly to look at. Oh yeah, the Zetars too.Mr. and Mrs. Sarek were the ultimate mixed couple. However in The Motion Picture, the plot twisted and a human was needed to give a machine it's purpose and they seemed to become non-corporeal.

 

[Nelson Au]

In thinking about how Star Trek tried to depict the future, name the episodes in which the Enterprise crew's nutritional needs are discussed and or shown. This would exclude situations off the ship, such as in Dr. Korby's caves or the food Eve makes Childress.

 

[FanCollector]

Don't forget our old buddy, Redjac! And the Providers aren't quite noncorporeal yet, but they're getting close.There isn't a uniform condemnation of non humanoid life in the show. Those entities can be as benevolent as Kollos, as evil as Redjac, or as snobbily helpful as the Organians. But there cannot be full mutual understanding and connection without bodies. According to numerous examples, if you gain a humanoid body, then you are part of us whether you like it or not. If you lose one, then you lose your humanity. The one momentary exception in the series is Requiem for Methuselah, and the tragedy is that the rule is broken...for exactly one minute. In Star Trek, the Pinocchio story can't have a happy ending.You're right about TMP. It does take Star Trek to a philosophically different place from where the series ever went. On the show, V'Ger would either have been destroyed by human superiority in some way or made to understand that joining was not possible. I don't know where I personally stand on the point, but I do see a marked difference between the two approaches.Spock's parents are definitely the series' ultimate word on mixed marriage...challenging, but worth it. Scott, I think you're right. There are several examples of noncorporeal life in the series, but we never get to understand much about them. They are catalysts of the plot, but always left in revealed until the surprise ending. The show never really takes a close look at any of those species, although the Organians do offer a little background on their past and their thinking.OK...trivia! Two questions, Nelson: am I correct in assuming beverages don't count? (That would be a LOT of episodes.) And what about episodes in which the crew is outside the ship but still concerned with food. In All Our Yesterdays, for example, Spock is very interested in current and future food opportunities. Would that count?

 

[Ockeghem]

Nelson,How about Kirk ordering a chicken sandwich and coffee in The Trouble With Tribbles?

 

[Nelson Au]

Just to take this momentarily outside of TOS, the android Data flirted with love and relationships. But it never worked out. Again the philosophy seems to remain because he cannot feel. In DS9, at the end when Odo finds himself and returns to the Founders world, he gives Kira his love, but because his life entity is so different, they cannot really have a real relationship, but he was able to give her something to remember him by.Hmm, would Rayna's example be similar to what happens with Andrea? I guess Andrea doesn't really develop emotions.I did mean to say the question does not include beverages, such as scotch or whiskey. Just focused on foods and meals. And like the examples in Dr. Korby's caves and Childress place, i wasn't counting Zarabeth's cave either. But the way you put it, it does concern the crew's dietary needs. Okay, why not include that, it concerns the crew and nutrition. Scott, Chicken sandwich was exactly on my list!

 

[Ockeghem]

Nelson,I think we can add The Corbomite Maneuver to the list, yes? McCoy changes Kirk's diet card as his weight was up a couple of pounds.

 

[Nelson Au]

"Whats this? Green leaves! ". Yes, that's the first one on the list! Correct. And the very first indication that they were pondering with the idea that the entire crew would eat at the same time. In the early days, I always imagined there was a large mess hall on the ship. But later that never exactly happened.

 

[FanCollector]

I think Data is a whole other level of the issue. He may not find romantic love, but his characterization in terms of emotion and friendship is 180 degrees from the original series' take on the matter.I think there are a lot more intimations of military procedures in early episodes, as in the idea of a mess hall. The show definitely evolved into showing life on the Enterprise as disciplined but less regimented.Kirk sends Sulu and D'Amato out to look for food and water in That Which Survives, citing the need for survival.

 

[Nelson Au]

Ignoring the TNG movies, Data did evolve to becoming friends with the command crew. He said he'd missed them if they were not around.I did not consider the That Which Survives example, good one! I had been focusing on the shipboard examples. Another point for Lee.

 

[FanCollector]

Another proposed victim of Dr. McCoy's diet plan: Tomar in By Any Other Name.