What's new

Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (3 Viewers)

Ockeghem

Ockeghem
Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
9,417
Real Name
Scott D. Atwell
Nelson Au said:
The benefits of the third season marathon! :)
"How well we both know that, huh?" ;)

I've watched three season-three episodes in three nights. (That could almost be a TNG trivia question, if you get my reference.) Anyway, I began with Wink Of an Eye, then Whom Gods Destroy (hence my trivia question), and last night I watched Spock's Brain.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
Lee, I've found that evil usually triumphs unless good is very, very careful. :)I think your thinking that my thinking of the Klingons as not being evil is clouded by the TNG versions, you're right! This is just off the cuff. The Day of the Dove example for me wasn't a valid look at the Klingons because I always interpreted their feeling that the Federation propaganda that Mara speaks of was implanted by the alien like it implanted the thought that Chekov had a brother. So I agree with you Lee. As I recall, your feeling is Mara's justification for the Klingon expansion was the need for more resources as their own are limited wasn't valid. (Perhaps they picked up on that note for Star Trek 6)Errand of Mercy and Kor for me painted the picture of the Klingon culture. They are a cruel and an agressive race and they stop at nothing to conquer other cultures. Sort of like the Roman Empire. But I think they are not pure evil like Gorgon was. They are not nice people for sure and they certainly are warriors. They are like Troyians in a way who are also warriors. They respect strength and don't have much use for mercy. So they have a culture based on the warrior culture. They want to expand and conquer and expand their rule. I think England tried to do that too. But they did it a different way.The Romulans are similar I think too. They are not evil. I guess in my mind the exact definition of evil wouldn't exactly apply to the Klingons. They come really close though! They seem to me in the form of Kor to have a code and some honor. Are they corrupt? Not sure that was shown in the series. Oh wait, Arne Darvin was pretty immoral, bad in trying to sabotage the grain project to kill millions. And Yarnek defined Kalhess as someone who meets the definition of evil. Now in writing all this down, I have to wonder if I actually supported your thinking then mine! True that the TNG Klingons have clouded my thinking. But I guess to me, if I compare Gorgon to Kor, Gorgon takes the cake as the evil one. But this would take more thinking as this is really off the cuff.
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
Never even thought about the way the creature in Day of the Dove might have planted more of those ideas in Kang and Mara. That's very possible.There's nothing wrong with "back reading" the TNG Klingon stuff into Star Trek. One reason for adding all of it was certainly philosophical (a greater understanding of one's enemy might make him an ally), but another reason is that the Klingons honestly never had all that much depth and they were easy to expand on.You mentioned Kor's code. He does have one, but it only seems to affect his preferences, not his actions. He likes people who fight back, but he is content to slaughter pacifists if that's what the moment requires. He doesn't use deception because it isn't necessary, but the Klingons in Friday's Child, The Trouble With Tribbles, A Private Little War, Elaan of Troyius, and The Savage Curtain (OK, not a real Klingon there) all do. It seems like the only Klingons who ever get to have a positive moment in the series are Mara and Kang. The others simply seem to do the nastiest thing possible in any given moment. The Romulans do seem to have a code that dictates their behavior. Fascinating comparison to Earth colonialism! All the colonial powers would have denied the analogy, but I think there is truth to it. Some of the conquerors were less violent than others, but once in place, they often did terrible things to maintain their positions. So perhaps the Klingons are just at an earlier stage of social and moral development?"Evil" may have as much to do with motivation as action, so I agree that the Gorgon is on a whole different level from the Klingons. But I do think that the series does portray the Klingons as not just different from, but worse than the Federation. In Star Trek, there is some moral relativism, but it is severely limited: freedom is good and tyranny is bad.Having the spin-off experiences of the Klingons does provide a sort of happy ending, in which we can see the Organian prediction beginning to come true.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
Agreed! The series would make the Klingons as simple two dimensional agressors when it serves the story. I think when we met Klingons like Kor and Kras, they had a little more to them. Kras became desperate when he could see his deal with the Capellans was slipping away when Kirk was showing some grit.The Klingon helping the Hill People with flintlocks wasn't entirely clear what his motives were, what was he getting out of arming the Hill People? Arne Darvin was simply trying to ruin the Sherman's Planet deal the Federation had so they could get it. Now this makes me wonder, the agressor type Klingons that Kor shows were openly aggressive and didn't fool around with trickery. But after that episode, the Klingons become more sneaky, they spy and manipulate. Was that due to the Organian Peace treaty forcing the Klingons to use other means to achieve their goals? Mara and Kang were very noble I thought. They come off as 3 dimensional as Kor. They were minding their own business and forced into the situation as the Enterprise was. And I liked his speech at the end. We don't need urging to kill humans! Shall I try to post another question?
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
Some of the individual Klingon characters were very memorably drawn and played; even if their ethics were two-dimensional, their personalities weren't. Kor is a great example. And like all good villains, Kor thinks his behavior is totally justified: the strong should be victorious and any methods are acceptable in meeting that goal.Good question about Krell (the script draft name of the Klingon in A Private Little War). I think the idea was to establish the planet as a Klingon puppet state, either for the purposes of strategic location or mining. But the Organian Peace Treaty and/or fear of Federation reprisal forced them to use flintlocks rather than disrupters. It had to look lack a natural progression.Kang and Mara definitely stand apart. It's another reason that Day of the Dove always strikes me as such a strong story. Also why, as much as I loved John Colicos as Kor, I'm glad he couldn't return for that show. I think the story worked better with a different kind of character. Can you picture Kor with a loving marriage?
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
The Klingons were made much richer because Colicos couldn't return for more appearances. Though it would have been nice to see him in Tribbles. Your post about Kor with a living wife made me laugh! :)
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
Name the two incidents which both Kirk and Picard suffer the exact same injury in the exact same way and nearly exactly the same spot on the body. Both are very serious injuries and life threatening,
 

Chuck Anstey

Screenwriter
Joined
Nov 10, 1998
Messages
1,640
Real Name
Chuck Anstey
With all this talk of Klingons, it made me realize that in none of the series is there any indication at all of the Klingons or Romulans spreading their philosophy to other planets. Both "empires" seem to contain one homeworld and maybe a couple of conquered planets. The Federation seems like it is 100's of times larger than either. Ignoring the swap of which race was honorable and which was deceitful from TOS to TNG, you would think that the Klingons would be trying to find other races to be allies in their philosophy of the strong lead and lord over the weak and so we would have other races as part of the Klingon empire and on board their ships. As shown through the series, the Federation would have advanced so much farther technologically and in sheer size through their trading and ally building that the Klingon and Romulan empires would have been effectively immaterial and absorbed.
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
It's a tough sell in general because the end result is usually, "And so we conquer you." We do see the Klingons doing some affinity marketing where it's necessary for diplomatic reasons, in Friday's Child and A Private Little War. No way to know the size or condition of the Klingon Empire, and hints are conflicting: in Tribbles, Kirk acknowledges that they are very efficient, but in Day of the Dove, Mara laments their poverty. But I think the principle is that the Federation wins people over by offering them freedom and "mutual trust and help," while the Klingons try to conquer and oppress local populations. The Romulans only appear three times and in two of them, they are simply guarding the Neutral Zone. Balance of Terror does intimate, however, that conquest is their general policy also, as implied in the dialogue among Decius, the Centurion, and the Commander.

But you are obviously right in the long term, as the events of Star Trek VI bear out. The Klingon model was not economically feasible over decades.
 

Ockeghem

Ockeghem
Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
9,417
Real Name
Scott D. Atwell
Nelson Au said:
Name the two incidents which both Kirk and Picard suffer the exact same injury in the exact same way and nearly exactly the same spot on the body. Both are very serious injuries and life threatening,
Nelson,

Would one of these incidents be the stabbing of Kirk by the 'Andorian' in Journey To Babel and the stabbing of Picard (as an Ensign) by the Nausican (told in a backstory) in Tapestry?
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
Scott, correct! They both got stabbed in the back. In the case of Picard, he did get pierced in the heart. While Kirk's heart was missed.You're next up.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
Chuck, that's a very insightful post. My impression from watching TOS and ignoring TNG, the Klingon Empire was pretty big and we only saw the times when the Federation had crossed paths with the Klingons. The Empire must have been considerable if the Federation was having peace talks with them at the time Kirk is trying to negotiate a port treaty with the Organians, before they knew their true nature of course. The Romulans had their territory, their 38th parallel. But the Klingons seem to be free to enter Federation space and the Federation wasn't restricted from the Klingon space. Though I'm sure you'd be advised not to go there. By the way Lee, I had to look up Colonialism. I wanted to be sure I understood it. That's not the Klingon way of course.
 

Ockeghem

Ockeghem
Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
9,417
Real Name
Scott D. Atwell
Nelson,LOL. I thought I named only one incident (and that there was another remaining). Okay, I will conjure up a question soon.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,042
Scott, I don't think there were other similar injuries both captains sustained that we're similar. :)I watched Spock's Brain tonight. Surprisingly not as bad as I keep thinking. I try to look at it as the comedy it was intended to be. This time, it occurred to me that revamped as a drama as it is, I wondered if it would have been better had they not had a remote controlled Spock tag along. Perhaps it would have been better if they went down without him and only got him when they found the brain. Or perhaps the Eymorg could have just took his whole body and integrated it into the machines and the ticking clock was removing all the tentacles that we're intertwined in his brain. And it did end with Kirk promising to teach the Eymorg and the Morg to live on their own without the Controller. Sounds familiar....:)
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
" I try to look at it as the comedy it was intended to be."This is giving everyone the benefit of a large doubt...any reason (apart from your generous nature) to assume this was the case?I agree that seeing the remote-controlled Spock hurts the credibility of the story. It would be hard to accept anyway, but he just serves as a constant reminder. I see what you mean about the ending mirroring other episodes in which Kirk frees an artificially restricted society. I know I am always the one defending Kirk regarding the Prime Directive, but if there is one real violation of it on his part, it might be Spock's Brain. It's arguable because the culture does seem to be static as a result of its dependence on the Controller; it's just that it is less artificially static than other cultures Kirk changes. It simply isn't clear whether their wills are meant to be directed by the Controller or just their machinery. We don't have enough detail to convict Kirk, but for all the Prime Directive accusers out there, I think this is your best shot at him.Little touch I enjoy: Kirk forgetting and asking Spock instead of Scott for tricorder readings. A nice subtle character moment in a not-so-subtle story. Similarly, when Spock's voice asks if he is hearing Dr. McCoy and if McCoy is with the captain: "Now where else would I be?" Great reading of a line that says a lot.
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
I forgot to mention the third great line. When Kara refers to the Controller as young and powerful and perfect, Spock's voice interrupts to say, "How very flattering." So funny, and clearly before the density ascribed to him later in the season as we discussed earlier.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,815
Messages
5,123,807
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top