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Samsung and Panasonic 3D Press Events (Video and Photos)

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Ronald Epstein, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
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    http://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/c/c9/avatar-60-4.jpg[/img]][​IMG][/img]
    Please note that Adam Gregorich has this thread with additional
    editorial and photos.


    Samsung held their Blu-ray Press Release this week inNew York City. On hand were the latest lineup of 2010 Blu-ray
    players and displays. Below is a brief video covering their product line.


    Video demo of 7000 and 9000 LED series; C6900 BD player;
    Samsung Plasma; Samsung C6930 Home Theater System. Source Material: Monsters vs. Aliens 3D courtesy of DreamWorks.


    My initial impressions of what I saw are rather mixed.
    What is being introduced to the home market is as good as what
    is currently being shown in theaters. If you are impressed with 3D
    features you have seen theatrically, you will be just as impressed in
    your home. It's that good!

    That being said, the representatives of Home Theater Forum were
    not won over by all the Samsung LED displays we watched 3Dcontent on. One of their best displays had noticeable image ghosting.
    For example, a scene from Monsters vs. Aliens taking place on the
    Golden Gate Bridge showed a faint additional bridge cable line. There were many cases that the double imaging was noticeably
    apparent that it became a distraction from enjoying the content.

    The plasma display we looked at looked significantly better. This
    did not surprise me as most of the 3D content I had seen in early
    production was on plasma and it looked noticeably better. I would
    guess all of that is attributed to the higher refresh rate attributed
    to that technology. That being said, we still noticed miniscule
    amounts of ghosting on the plasma display as well.

    Being that there were initial problems reported from Best Buy
    consumers
    concerning the first batch of Samsung Blu-ray players
    it is rather difficult to determine if any of the anomalies are inherent
    of the player rather than the display.

    We are going to be very careful about blaming Samsung. The
    problems we saw were not just related to their displays. Wetook the same source material (Monsters vs. Aliens) to the
    Panasonic 3D press event the following day and discovered
    similar ghosting issues which leads us to believe that perhaps
    the problem may actually lie in the authoring of the disc.

    Confused? So are we.

    Samsung is including a starter kit with the purchase of their
    3D display and Blu-ray player. The kit contains two 3D glasses
    and a copy of Monsters vs. Aliens 3D. When we inquired how
    much additional eyewear would cost we were quoted $135 for
    each additional pair of glasses (pair meaning one), which we
    felt was a bit outrageous. Of course, in time, we expect prices
    to rapidly decline.

    The glasses are streamlined though not particularly lightweight. They contain a small battery and are powered on and off via a
    tiny button on the upper right corner of the frame. I noticed that
    upon turning them on there is a slight room dimming effect that
    takes place which helps cut out ambient light (though I am not
    certain it was designed for that purpose).
    We will be continuing our coverage of 3D this week as Panasonic
    rolls out their 2010 product line at a similar NYC press event. Watch
    for Adam Gregorich's coverage later this week in this and otherthreads within this High Definition Hardware forum.

    In the meantime, don't miss more details pertaining to the Samsung
    event here.
     
  2. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
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    Look for additional 3D coverage as Adam Gregorich
    posts photos from this and the Panasonic 3D press
    event.
     
  3. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Well-Known Member

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    What you wrote in your initial post doesn't leave me very impressed about this tech. Is the ghosting also occurring when the 2D mode is active? Or is it occurring only when the 3D mode is active? Does it occur when one has the glasses the on? So far, I'm still uncovinced that this is the next big thing in home entertainment. The requirement to buy all new equipment plus the cost of extra glasses for more than two viewers seems like a bigger cost hurdle to the widespread adoption of this technology than even that faced by high definition players during their introduction. There also still seems to be a lot of unanswered questions regarding compatability of 3D hardware between different brand names. I might be making a big mistake, but I think this is going to be one of those times where I'm going to let other people test the early adoption waters.

    After watching 3D in the theatre, I'm pretty well convinced that this tech is really only going to be impressive on large screens. To me, for home theatre, that means front projection with a screen size of at least 100" diagonally. I would probably actively consider putting a toe into the 3D waters when the following conditions are met:

    1) When it works without any picture degradation.
    2) When 3D equipment is compatible across all brands, so you don't have to stick to one particular manufacturer's line up to get the stuff to work.
    3) When it becomes available in a front projector.
    4) When a 3D equipped front projector doesn't require a person to sign away their firstborn.
    I'll be keeping eye on developments in this area because I'm a sap for these kind of technological toys, but I'm pretty sure I'm looking at at least a five year window before considering getting any "3D" equipment. Maybe by that time they'll have perfected "glassless" 3D technology. From what I have read, there are quite a few companies that are starting to produce those types of displays. In the meantime, I'll stick to the theatre for any 3D "fix" that I may require.
     
  4. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
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    Edwin,

    Most all the viewing we did was in 3D so
    the comments regarding "ghosting" is related
    to the 3D content.

    I am going to have Adam help me with this
    response because I can only speak for the
    Samsung displays that we saw ghosting on.
    Adam was able to see both the Samsung LEDand Panasonic plasma displays. From ourdiscussions, he indicated that there was also
    ghosting issues on the Panasonic displays but
    to a lesser extent.

    The problem is that there just isn't enoughsource material out there to determine where
    the problem lies. Is it the fault of the displays
    or is the one or two source discs being used
    badly authored?
    Absolutely, I think it would be ludicrious for
    anyone to go out tomorrow and purchase a
    Blu-ray display and player. My personal opinion
    is that this technology is being rushed out before
    there is serious attention being given to quality
    control issues.
    That being said, I do not agree that you need
    a 103' screen to enjoy 3D. We watched content
    on an approx. 40" display and were pleased with
    the results. The technology is fantastic. We all
    stood there and said that we wanted this in our
    homes immediately. However we also came to
    the conclusion that we would not pay for anything
    we saw this week until the problems are sorted out.

    I will ask Adam to chime in further as I believe you
    need to hear his assessment of what he saw over
    at the Panasonic press conference.
     
  5. RolandL

    RolandL Well-Known Member

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    The prices of the glasses, TV's, Blu-ray 3D players will come down. I remember 25 years ago buying my first 3-D field-sequential system and it was very expensive like $400. The 3D video was only VHS tapes back then and they were like $50 to $90 each! Years later other companies starting making the systems, glasses and the video was now on DVD and was very inexpensive. But you had flicker and some ghosting. I think the same will happen with Blu-ray 3D except you have no flicker and HD picture quality. So, only the ghosting needs to be fixed.

    The Optoma HD66 front projector is only $699. Its 720p so, 1080 3D front projectors should not be too expensive.
     
  6. Adam Gregorich

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    Ron Epstein, Kevin Collins and I had the pleasure of spending some time in New York this week looking at the initial 3D Blu-ray offerings from Samsung and Panasonic. If I had to sum up my feelings and experiences with 3D Blu-ray so far in one word it would have to be: Inconsistent. I really want to use “terrific”, “outstanding” or “must own” (okay, that’s two words), but regrettably I have to stick with inconsistent at this point.
    Over the last year, and even this week I have seen some incredible 3D Blu-ray demos that have left me trying to figure out ways to justify to my wife why we need to retire our existing set and replace it with a new 3D model, while simultaneously looking for a rag to wipe up the small puddle of drool at my feet. Then this week I saw some demos that leave me wondering why anyone would want to pay a steep premium for a 3D capable system.
    The best demos I’ve seen are not the “gotcha” moments where something appears to lunge out at you (although those are fun!), but ones where the 3D adds a natural, enhanced depth to the picture. A perfect example of this was a demo loop shown by Samsung with some engaging scenes, including trailers for the upcoming animated films, Shrek and How to Train Your Dragon---some moments in these looked downright spectacular. I also saw some amazing demos at Panasonic Hollywood Labs featuring a combination of scenes from the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony, music videos and animation clips. This week, Panasonic showed three different demos including a clip of the opening scene from Ice Age 3 that looked just like I remembered seeing it in the theater—The increased depth offered by the 3D definitely added to the experience.
    Unfortunately I also experienced some demos this week with lots of problems: With scenes where there was some blurring due to quick moving images, or the appearance of a “ghosting effect” around some images in high contrast scenes. I’m not sure if this is a problem with cross talk (image bleed between the L&R eye signals), performance and tuning of the shutter in the glasses, an authoring problem with the depth adjustment of the source material, or something else. Regardless of the cause, seeing these leads to an unsatisfying 3D experience and at least for me eye fatigue (your mileage may vary).
    Samsung was showing Monsters Vs. Aliens in 3D. Throughout the film there was a fair amount of ghosting. It was less pronounced on their 3D plasma than their LED TVs, but there wasn’t as much contrast in that picture so I don’t know if it was a factor of the contrast difference or the technology difference. I have a request in with Samsung to try to figure out what the source of the ghosting is on these scenes (HW,SW, or ?), but their response wasn’t available before this posted. I will update it when it is available. I watched the same scenes from MvA on the Panasonic 3D system and they were still visible in some scenes but not as obvious in others. Panasonic was using three different demos at their event: Video footage taken underwater around a reef teeming with fish, the previously mentioned Ice Age 3, and a demo disc with a trailer for Astro Boy and some sports footage. This last disc suffered from the same distracting ghosting artifacts that Monsters Vs. Aliens did.
    Because there is so little demo material available and each company has its own exclusive content, it just feels like it is too early to forecast what the typical at home 3D experience will be like.
    While I have a lot of respect for both Panasonic and Samsung and understand that they are investing heavily into the 3D standard, IMHO, I think they are making some mistakes in their introduction of the product to the consumer market. There is already a shortage of content on launch, but that problem is being made worse by manufacture/studio alliances. As I previously mentioned, Samsung is including a 3D copy of Monsters Vs. Aliens with the purchase of a complete 3D system. It will not be available separately at this time. That means if you buy a Panasonic 3D system you won’t have the ability to buy this title. Don’t feel too sorry for the Panasonic customer for missing out on that because they will exclusively be getting Coraline and Ice Age 3 Dawn of the Dinosaurs in 3D on Blu-ray. According to Jeffrey Katzenberg, DreamWorks will also be bringing the Shrek films to 3D in Q4 of 2010 made available exclusive to Samsung customers. (Please note that all the discs are authored to the 3D Blu-ray standard and while you will be able to play them, you just can’t buy them.) It just seems like both the manufacturrs and the studios are shooting themselves in the foot by further limiting the availability of the few titles that are 3D capable. I understand that Samsung is probably compensating or at bare minimum paying for the authoring of the DreamWorks titles and Panasonic is probably doing the same for Fox and Universal, but it seems like they could cooperate a bit better to make all 3D titles available to everyone with a compatible display. At one point during the HD DVD/Blu-ray format war both sides had universal promotional packages that weren’t manufacturer specific. I don’t know why that can’t happen here. Obviously over time this will become a moot issue as more and more content eventually becomes available, but for now I think it’s silly.
    Another problem between manufacturers is that the 3D standard doesn’t cover a standard glasses design, so you can’t take your Panasonic 3D glasses over to your neighbor’s house to watch a movie on his Samsung system. Both Panasonic and Samsung have a MSRP of $149 for a pair of battery-powered 3D glasses. That’s a big hit on a family of four, not to mention if you plan on having a big crowd of friends over. According to Best Buy America’s President Mike Vitelli they are putting pressure on both Samsung and Panasonic to standardize the glasses. I believe it will happen in the future, but that doesn’t help anyone now. Regardless of the system, you can expect about 250 hours of watching content before you need to change the batteries in the glasses.

    So is 3D at home a passing fad? I don’t think so, and neither does James Cameron: [​IMG]
    http://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/f/f8/avatar-60-8.jpg[/img]][​IMG][/img]
     
  7. Adam Gregorich

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    The ghosting was only visable on some content. We watched all demos in 3D with glasses on.

    As to screen size, I have to agree with what Ron said:



     
  8. Adam Gregorich

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  9. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Well-Known Member

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    If the ghosting was appearing on some content and not others that would seem to support the suggestion of an error during authoring, rather than a proble with the actual hardware. I figured screen size becomes an important factor with 3D because of the immersion factor. I just can't see a 40" screen providing the required immersion factor that makes 3D really impressive due to the fact that a person would be very aware of the screen edges while watching. During my theatrical viewing of "Avatar" the screen felt "smaller" to me than with a regular 2D viewing, so I figured that effect would also show up on a 3D TV. However, you guys have seen these sets in action and I haven't so I'll defer to your opinion that the experience is impressive.
     
  10. Adam Gregorich

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    I am inclined to agree with the authoring, but with so little content available all I can do is speculate. I talked with what is IMHO one of the best authoring houses out there, (I have seen no problems on ANY of their 3D content) and they didn't do any of the discs that I saw it on. I should be hearing from Samsung this next week to get their take on it.

    As to screen size, you can get an immersive effect on a smaller screen. I don't think I looked at Samsung's 40", but I think we did the 46". Distance for the screen is more important with 3D than 2D. When I am too close to a 3D screen I get eye fatigue (YMMV). Based on your comment it sounds like you will be pulled out of the experience if you are too far away. I found that between approx 5 and 10 feet from a 55" was the perfect viewing distance for me. Samsung said they will have units on display at Best Buy and Sears in the near future. You will just have to try it out and see for yourself.
     
  11. hampsteadbandit

    hampsteadbandit Well-Known Member

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    I have seen Avatar in 3D and 2D in the cinema theatre here in London, England

    and also at home in 2D on my LG Blu setup

    I would say, without doubt, that the 2D cinema presentation was the most desirable in terms of PQ

    I have also seen several other 3D cinema theatre films including Final Destination 4 and Alice in Wonderland

    something I would say I have noticed is a big difference between 3D and 2D in the cinema, is the difference in "contrast" - the 3D presentations have a damped-down vibrancy and brightness, due to the polarising nature of the glasses?
     
  12. RolandL

    RolandL Well-Known Member

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    When you or your staff went to the CES did you notice any ghosting on the 3D displays?
     
  13. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Administrator
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    Home Theater Forum was not at CES. We will be atCEDIA in 6 months and have more to report from there.

    However, we have seen a prototype of 3D over the past
    two years at Panasonic on their 103' plasma display.

    Members of Home Theater Forum have also seen the
    same 3D demos at Panasonic Hollywood Labs.

    We saw demos ranging from animated film to the 2008
    opening ceremonies at the Olympics in China. Many
    different sources of programming were shown to us.

    I don't think any of us walked away from those demos
    with any less than completely positive opinions. Infact, we were all completely blown away by the quality
    of the 3D presentation in High Definition.

    No ghosting as far as any of us could see.

    This is why Adam and I are somewhat sceptical as
    to where the problem lies with what we viewed last week.

    We have seen the technology in perfected stage. Tonow see that there are issues we have not previously seen
    leads us to believe that either the manufacturers havestrayed from the original prototype design or there are
    problems with the authoring of the discs since there were
    only two Blu-ray disc sources shown.
     
  14. Adam Gregorich

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    I have never theatrically watched the same film in both 2D and 3D. Even if I did and noticed a difference there could be a lot of variables besides the 2D/3D that could be the cause of the difference. The last few 3D movies I saw seemed to have a plenty of vibrancy and brightness.

    Keep in mind that the home 3D systems work a bit differently. They use active shutter glasses so they only allow a signal for one eye at a time.
     
  15. Scott Merryfield

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    So it sounds like early adopters have an additional risk here --the standard for the glasses may change due to pressure from retailers to create a single standard. I guess we can expect a "version 2" of these 3D TV's in a year or two?
     
  16. Parker Clack

    Parker Clack Schizophrenic Man
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    For me the issue with 3D is the fact that I have to wear the glasses. For me, being a person that wears glasses, putting another pair of glasses on over them is a real issue. I am distracted enough that I notice the frame of my own glasses and then the frame of the 3D glasses. It is so distracting that I have a hard time not noticing the glasses during the show. The end result for me is say that they tech is ok but would I want it in my own home? In a word, No. If I was at the movies or at a theme park with a 3D ride that would be one thing. This is one tech that I believe should remain out of the house at the movie theaters, etc.

    Maybe in a few years the tech will catch up enough so you don't need the glasses but until that day happens I don't see purchasing any type of 3D display or other 3D equipment or software.

    Parker
     
  17. hampsteadbandit

    hampsteadbandit Well-Known Member

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    I have never theatrically watched the same film in both 2D and 3D. Even if I did and noticed a difference there could be a lot of variables besides the 2D/3D that could be the cause of the difference. The last few 3D movies I saw seemed to have a plenty of vibrancy and brightness.

    from my own experiences watching the advertising and trailers in 2D / 3D before a 3D film starts, and experimenting with removing / installing the 3D glasses during this period, and also lifting the glasses during the 3D presentation - when you drop the glasses in front of your eyes, you are putting a "filter" which is grey (its a polarising lens) and this is what is damping down the PQ in terms of brightness / contrast

    If you have seen Avatar in 3D, I'd recommend (as an experiment) watching it again in 2D, and see how different it appears to the naked eye

    since Avatar's 3D was quite subtle (and therefore effective in terms of immersion / suspension of disbelief, compared to gimmicky presentation like Final Destination 4 in 3D where stuff was just thrown at the screen), the 2D presentation of Avatar was in fact better because not having that grey filter in front of your eyes, allowed you to view the picture in its all sheer glory - and Pandora was majestic to behold!
     
  18. Adam Gregorich

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    Probably, but I bet there are ways that after new sets are released where you could choose version one or to glasses from the TV setup menu. The big question is could you use both at the same time.
    How the glasses work is there are IR emitters built into the frames of all 3D TVs, and there is an IT receiver built into the glasses. The TV sends a sync signal via IR to the glasses so the opening and closing of the shutters in the glasses stays in sync with the picture. I imagine that standardizing is as simple as moving everyone to the same IR frequency/protocol.
     
  19. Adam Gregorich

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    I wear glasses and with both the Samsung and Panasonic glasses this was not an issue for me. They fit fine over my existing glasses and I didn't notice any reflections. While Elton John may have a problem I think most people who wear glasses will be fine.
     
  20. Stephen Orr

    Stephen Orr Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree that, in my experience, 2D presentations of 3D material (Avatar, Alice, Up) has consistently looked sharper and brighter, and has provided me with a better viewing experience. These are hurtles that 3D is going to have to overcome before I would consider installing a 3D player and television in my home.
     

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