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RP82 480P -> 1080i or 540p

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by MichaelOD, Dec 5, 2003.

  1. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    hello!

    i have a panasonic rp82 dvd plater along with a Toshiba 57HX83 RPTV and i'm wondering if its better to have the TV set to 1080i or have the TV upconvert the signal to 540p? the player is currently in progressive mode.

    i have heard that there can be some issues upconverting 480p signals to 540p, but this model has apparently alleviated some of those issues. basically, i want to take utmost advantage of the FLI2200 chip that resides in my dvd player, and i'm just wondering what configuration of tv settings and/or dvd settings will allow for this.

    because this topic is related to both a display and video source - i was unsure where to post. forgive me if i'm in the wrong section.

    thanks in advance for any replies!
     
  2. Lev-S

    Lev-S Second Unit

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    from what i know, if your player is in 480p mode, it doesn't matter if it's on 540p or 1080i. It will default to 540p. Now if you put the player in 480i and let the TV deal with the i to p conversion, than I have no idea.
     
  3. greg_t

    greg_t Screenwriter

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    What happens is that the RP82 converts from 480i to 480p, the signal is converted to analog, sent out the component cables, and into your Toshiba, which then converts from analog back to digital and upconverts the 480p to 540p or 1080i depending on how you have it set. The Toshiba doesn't look at the incoming signal but upconverts everything to either 540p or 1080i, depending on what you have it set on. There isn't any way to get around this and allow the native 480p from the 82 to pass through untouched, which would be best. You would need a TV that allows native 480p to get the most out of the Faroudja chip. Unfortunately, this process does result in resolution loss due to the extra analog to digital conversion and artifacting. Whether or not it's really noticeable on movies is another story. The new Toshibas are supposed to be better. They would have been better if they just would have allowed native 480p. The upconverting to 540p is done as a cost cutting measure. Other sets such as Pioneer, and I believe Panasonic and Mits allow native 480p. I know my pioneer does.
     
  4. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    the upconverting to 540p is a cost cutting measure? really? this is the first i've heard of this! does anyone know how or why having a set do 540p is a cost saving measure?

    what your saying in regards to the television excepting a native 480p make sense, i'm just wondering that because my tv does upconvert to 540p am i losing all or most of the advantages the RP82's progressive signals give over non faroudja chipped players? should i leave the TV set to 1080i? is the superior signal being sent by my player being lost once it gets to the TV because of the constant conversion?

    a lot of questions, i know...i'm just a tad frustrated, and dissapointed, at this revelation.

    greg_t, thanks for your comprehensive response!
     
  5. Craig Robertson

    Craig Robertson Supporting Actor

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  6. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    There are three possible combinations here:

    480i->1080i
    480p->540p
    480p->1080i

    In the testing I've done (confirmed by several owners), the best image quality is obtained with the first of the three. That's right...480i output from the DVD player.

    540p is not so much a money saving issue. It allows the set to be optimized for a single scan rate.

    And just to clear up one misconception...any 480i signal is displayed at 1080i. The 540p/1080i switch does nothing (only works for 480p inputs).
     
  7. greg_t

    greg_t Screenwriter

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    I agree. Using 480i out is likely better, it results in less processing on the signal. In the posters case, this bites because either way, he won't be able to take full advantage of the Faroudja. That's why you get a TV that allows native 480p.
     
  8. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    yes...this does bite! [​IMG] i mean, currently my picture is superior to what it was with my old progressive player [Toshiba SD3750]; its just unfortunate that i'm unable to take full advantage of what the faroudja chip has to offer.

    when i had purchased my tv, i was unaware of the intricacies of up/down conversion as well as the specific differences between 480p and 540p. there is always more to learn; even when i thought i had done an excellent job researching my equipment.

    the important thing is whether i'm satisfied, and i am more than pleased with my current setup, i just may end up upgrading my tv before i expected...[​IMG]
     
  9. TonyTone

    TonyTone Supporting Actor

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  10. CAnth_L

    CAnth_L Extra

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    How do you change the tv from 540p to 1080i anyways?
     
  11. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    do you own a toshiba x83 rptv?
     
  12. CAnth_L

    CAnth_L Extra

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    No, it's a toshiba 50h72. But it also upconverts and I also have the rp-82.
     
  13. MichaelOD

    MichaelOD Stunt Coordinator

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    if the menu's are the same, you should be able to go to display, and you'll see 540p/1080i - just push left or right on your controller to select either or.
     
  14. greg_t

    greg_t Screenwriter

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    I'm suprised that if you input 480i it can only go to 1080i and not 540p as JohnnyG stated. That would be unacceptable to me.
     
  15. Paul_Ptaaty

    Paul_Ptaaty Stunt Coordinator

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    *edit* almost deleted my post because many people also use the word scaler to describe what I think is deinterlacing, take it for what it is worth. So although it won't be untouched as a 480p signal will be scaled, you still will be using the FLI2200 chip to deinterlace, which will look much better.

    Scaling is NOT the same as deinterlacing all though they are related. Scaling is taking the image and more or less oversampling every frame to output a higher resolution. Deinterlacing is different in that it uses motion adaptation and interpolation between feilds to make one progressive image.
    From audiovideo101 "There are two typical methods used for "painting" a television image on a screen. The progressive method paints the image line after line one, two, three, four and so on for every successive image painted on the screen (frame). Interlaced scanning is a method of compression devised for the analog NTSC television system in which two fields make up every frame. The first field is a group of all the odd lines in the image (one, three, five and so on). The second field paints all the even lines in the image (two, four, six and so on). One field is painted on the screen every 1/60th of a second. The two fields create a full frame every 1/30th of a second. Comparatively, progressive scanning paints the entire image (the fields combined) every 1/60th of a second. Thus interlaced scanning actually sends half of the information required for progressive scanning because a complete image is only produced 30 times per second. "

    So deinterlacing uses different algorithms to make progressive images from an interlaced source. Then a scaler can scale this image up to a new resolution.

    I have a similar situation with a hitachi TV and being able to choose.

    The hitachi has a good internal scaler and a relatively poor deinterlacer. I only run my 2900 progressive as interlaced looks terrible. Before someone jumps all over my case, I know the 2900 has the ICP (interlaced chroma prob) and I tried it on my old RP62 as well. No contest.

    So yes using progressive is the way to go on your TV. Some people with good scaler/deinterlacers (usually units do both) of course are better of taking the interlaced signal, but most TVs do not have deinterlaces as good as the SI504 or FLI2200.
     
  16. CAnth_L

    CAnth_L Extra

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    Guess my 50h72 doesn't have that switching option. You were talking about the user menu, right?
     
  17. Paul_Ptaaty

    Paul_Ptaaty Stunt Coordinator

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    canth_l

    For hitachi owners we have a button on the remote called "virtual HD" or something, I would guess you have something similar with a toshiba moniker....
     
  18. JohnSni

    JohnSni Extra

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    I have a 57H83 and its in the menu....pretty obvious if your TV has it...you can pick 540/1080.

    I have a very nice p-scan dvd player as well (Pioneer Elite 45a) and run it in 480i and let my TV convert to 1080i....this results in the best picture. Bummer, but true.
     
  19. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    The 540p/1080i choice is new for the current model year. 480i->1080i looks great to me. Although this won't 'undo' 2:3 pulldown, I can not detect an increase in artifacts at all.

    It's one of those "don't knock it 'til you try it" things.
     
  20. Mark_E

    Mark_E Extra

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    Has anyone with a new Toshiba HX83 tried swiching between their s-video and component inputs? S-video appears to give the better picture. At first I thought it was due to a the DVD's progressive output so I turned that off and let the TV do the job. A bit better, but still not better than with S-video. I have a panasonic DVD player and my black level is set correctly for the output. If anyone else has noticed this as well with their Toshiba sets, I would like to know.
     

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