Robert Harris on The Bits: The Alamo (1 Viewer)

[Emperor5353]

Silent here for a couple of months...any news here at all??

 

[JParker]

Silent here for a couple of months...any news here at all??

I don't know; this made the news -- you think it affects MGM's decision?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/05/mother-dem-convention-star-castro-called-alamo-defenders-drunks-crooks/

Maria del Rosario Castro, the mother of San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro [DNC keynote speaker] said in 2010 that she grew up being told the battle was “glorious,” only to learn the so-called heroes were really “a bunch of drunks and crooks and slaveholding imperialists who conquered land that didn’t belong to them.”

I defend the right to her opinion but it may explain the trouble with the film although I think Wayne's point was:

It is difficult to recall that stouthearted men such as Davy Crockett (a nationally known frontiersman and former congressman), Will Travis (only 23 years old with a little baby at home), and Jim Bowie (a wealthy landowner with properties on both sides of the Rio Grande) really existed. These were real men with real dreams and real desires. Real blood flowed through their veins. They loved their families and enjoyed life as much as any of us do. There was something different about them, however. They possessed a commitment to liberty that transcended personal safety and comfort...
They fought and died for a principle, and that principle was liberty and independence. So did the men at Lexington and Concord. That is our heritage.

The topic is political, much as anything, even low flush toilets so perhaps this post will be deleted. But I suspect the film will end up as "industrial waste" as Bobby H posted above and that's a national tragedy...

 

[AllenW]

There is an article in the current issue of "Alamo Journal" (December 2012) by Ashley Ward that says no undamaged, complete print of the full version of "The Alamo" exists anymore. The one print that was discovered (in Canada) was left in a non-air conditioned facility and has badly deteriorated. Ward claims that it is probably impossible to restore the original color of the film and, in any case, there is no one interested in doing so or willing to spend the money that it would require. If you are lucky enough to have a copy of the two-cassette VHS release of the film, hold onto it and, if possible, burn a copy onto a couple of DVD-R discs (the VHS is NOT copy protected). The color in that print is clearly faded, but it's the best anyone's likely to get in this lifetime. Ward also says that, although that VHS edition is packaged as the "Director's Cut" it is not that at all. In Ward's telling, Wayne may have cared very deeply about his film during the many years he planned, raised money for, and shot it, but he seemed to show little interest in preserving the film once it had finished its run. Ward says the film was sold by Wayne to United Artists (now MGM) and that ALL copies, negatives, prints of various kinds, etc., were turned over to United as part of the sale. In short, don't expect to ever see a restored version of this film.

 

[oscar_merkx]

There is an article in the current issue of "Alamo Journal" (December 2012) by Ashley Ward that says no undamaged, complete print of the full version of "The Alamo" exists anymore. The one print that was discovered (in Canada) was left in a non-air conditioned facility and has badly deteriorated. Ward claims that it is probably impossible to restore the original color of the film and, in any case, there is no one interested in doing so or willing to spend the money that it would require. If you are lucky enough to have a copy of the two-cassette VHS release of the film, hold onto it and, if possible, burn a copy onto a couple of DVD-R discs (the VHS is NOT copy protected). The color in that print is clearly faded, but it's the best anyone's likely to get in this lifetime. Ward also says that, although that VHS edition is packaged as the "Director's Cut" it is not that at all. In Ward's telling, Wayne may have cared very deeply about his film during the many years he planned, raised money for, and shot it, but he seemed to show little interest in preserving the film once it had finished its run. Ward says the film was sold by Wayne to United Artists (now MGM) and that ALL copies, negatives, prints of various kinds, etc., were turned over to United as part of the sale. In short, don't expect to ever see a restored version of this film.

That seems really sad considering that lots of even older movies receive more love

 

[DakotaSurfer]

That's a damn shame. Guess I'll be holding on to my VHS and Laser copies for quite awhile. I already burned several copies to DVD just so I never lose the full feature.
This is the code that should be on the side of your VHS box:
3 hr. 22 min. 55 sec.

 

[oscar_merkx]

I would imagine that Martin Scorsese and his Foundation would have shown an interest.

 

[benbess]

I would imagine that Martin Scorsese and his Foundation would have shown an interest.

Maybe, but there are literally thousands of films other films that also need restoration. There are way too many worthy movies in need, and way too little in the way of funds for restorations.

 

[oscar_merkx]

Maybe, but there are literally thousands of films other films that also need restoration. There are way too many worthy movies in need, and way too little in the way of funds for restorations.

I guess you are right.
Still it is sad that movies disappear like that.

 

[Robert Harris]

The reality of the situation is that M-G-M has no interest in saving the film, even if fund-raising comes from other sources.

RAH

 

[OliverK]

The reality of the situation is that M-G-M has no interest in saving the film, even if fund-raising comes from other sources.
RAH

While I am not a big fan of The Alamo it clearly has its following and would allow for a lucrative Blu-Ray release with outside funding clearly being a viable option. I find it incomprehensible that MGM would not pursue that option but then again it is MGM we're talking about.

 

[rsmithjr]

I have the LD of the longer version, made from the 70mm print found in Canada, and it certainly makes more sense and is more involving than the shorter version. I had only seen the shorter version in 35mm (dye transfer, 4 track mag), and really was not that impressed.
If the film is to be restored, some method must be developed for restoring the complete version.
I have a question for RAH on this subject: is it possible to use the now-magenta 70mm print for the missing scenes and apply the color from the 480i LD version? It seems to me that it might be possible to develop software that would do this on a frame-by-frame basis, first registering the two images together, and then copying the color using the detail from the still-viewable magenta layer. The final step would be hand-touchups.
Even if possible, this would probably be prohibitively expensive. But, nevertheless, I would be interested to hear RAH and others on the technical feasibility of doing this to some degree of acceptability.

 

[Brian McP]

To me, this is a heartbreaking thread -- this may be old news already, but a great article published recently from The Atlantic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/11/with-35mm-film-dead-will-classic-movies-ever-look-the-same-again/265184/
The reference to Laurel and Hardy in this article reminds me greatly of MGM's attitude to "The Alamo" -- even with the advent of DCP and this fact making classic titles more readily available to theatres than they were when film stock was the only option, the restored version of "The Alamo" would clean up at the box office even as an arthouse release (released through the United Artists division, perhaps?) and then as a deluxe boxset as with "Lawrence of Arabia".
According to Robert, even if the restoration is paid for by outside sources, MGM has no interest in letting anyone touch it -- what kind of logic is that? Someone said that the studio only lives for the next James Bond movie -- if that's the case, alright then: would a proposition to Michael Wilson, Barbara Broccoli and EON Productions to include the restoration of "The Alamo" as a future co-production with MGM and Batjac be worth a try?
I know their motto was 'Everything or Nothing' which is an attitude the Duke probably had while making this movie -- I'd hate for this picture to end up in the same state as the Laurel and Hardy pictures, held prisoner as corporate assets as they slowly disintergrate, great actors and performances lost to future generations.

 

[Robert Harris]

I have the LD of the longer version, made from the 70mm print found in Canada, and it certainly makes more sense and is more involving than the shorter version. I had only seen the shorter version in 35mm (dye transfer, 4 track mag), and really was not that impressed.
If the film is to be restored, some method must be developed for restoring the complete version.
I have a question for RAH on this subject: is it possible to use the now-magenta 70mm print for the missing scenes and apply the color from the 480i LD version? It seems to me that it might be possible to develop software that would do this on a frame-by-frame basis, first registering the two images together, and then copying the color using the detail from the still-viewable magenta layer. The final step would be hand-touchups.
Even if possible, this would probably be prohibitively expensive. But, nevertheless, I would be interested to hear RAH and others on the technical feasibility of doing this to some degree of acceptability.

Possible, yes. But testing has proven better sources for at least parts of the missing footage than you mention. I'll not get into details.
RAH

 

[OliverK]

I have the LD of the longer version, made from the 70mm print found in Canada, and it certainly makes more sense and is more involving than the shorter version. I had only seen the shorter version in 35mm (dye transfer, 4 track mag), and really was not that impressed.
If the film is to be restored, some method must be developed for restoring the complete version.
I have a question for RAH on this subject: is it possible to use the now-magenta 70mm print for the missing scenes and apply the color from the 480i LD version? It seems to me that it might be possible to develop software that would do this on a frame-by-frame basis, first registering the two images together, and then copying the color using the detail from the still-viewable magenta layer. The final step would be hand-touchups.
Even if possible, this would probably be prohibitively expensive. But, nevertheless, I would be interested to hear RAH and others on the technical feasibility of doing this to some degree of acceptability.

The owner of the Schauburg cinema in Germany posted this color corrected frame of a vintage copy of Ben Hur that went from completely faded magenta to looking really good again, see post 9 of the thread:
http://www.filmvorfuehrer.de/topic/5335-anweisungen-fur-den-filmvorfuhrer/
The original frame looked very similar to the one posted here in the widescreen museum by Michael Hart:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/special/ben-hurdvd2.htm

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by OliverK /t/283892/robert-harris-on-the-bits-resurrecting-and-restoring-the-alamo/300#post_4011674
The owner of the Schauburg cinema in Germany posted this color corrected frame of a vintage copy of Ben Hur that went from completely faded magenta to looking really good again, see post 9 of the thread:
http://www.filmvorfuehrer.de/topic/5335-anweisungen-fur-den-filmvorfuhrer/
The original frame looked very similar to the one posted here in the widescreen museum by Michael Hart:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/special/ben-hurdvd2.htm

I have yet to see any photographic tests which enable a fully faded frame to be reclaimed with full, accurate color.

RAH

 

[OliverK]

I have yet to see any photographic tests which enable a fully faded frame to be reclaimed with full, accurate color.
RAH

Very true but I would say that it looks rather good if the only thing one had to work with was a faded 70mm print for certain scenes.

 

[benbess]

Possible, yes. But testing has proven better sources for at least parts of the missing footage than you mention. I'll not get into details.
RAH

Only a guess, but perhaps damaged separation masters exist for this title. In the unlikely event Criterion, Scorsese, or someone lese tries to save The Alamo, that might be the only chance this film has....But given MGM's lack of interest, it seems unlikely the movie will survive. In which case we can only remember the Alamo....

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by benbess /t/283892/robert-harris-on-the-bits-resurrecting-and-restoring-the-alamo/330#post_4011800
Only a guess, but perhaps damaged separation masters exist for this title. In the unlikely event Criterion, Scorsese, or someone lese tries to save The Alamo, that might be the only chance this film has....But given MGM's lack of interest, it seems unlikely the movie will survive. In which case we can only remember the Alamo....

That would be far too easy.

RAH

 

[AllenW]

Has there been any progress on restoring "The Alamo?" It's hard to believe that this film will end up among the many lost films we now lament.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

Have you read the last few dozen posts Allen?