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reciever vs. seperates (1 Viewer)

Doug_

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Seth=L,

I haven't heard the DMC-1 but hear it is a real performer. I was going to pick one up to go with the MPS-1, but ran into a good deal on an Anthem AVM30 on audiogon and it is on its way to me instead. Overall, the AVM30 had more features (minus HDMI - but this is available via an upgrade along with a killer video scaler). It also has the ability for 4 zones, while the DMC-1 only has 2 zones. When the DMC-1 is replaced with AV123's next unit, I may pick one up from one of the forum members looking to upgrade. I am already trying to hunt down another MPS-1 for zones 2, 3, and 4 that I want to set up.

One note about the HDMI with the DMC-1: It is an external switch and will ONLY switch video. Therefore, you will not be able to run the audio (SACD, DVD-AUDIO, HD formats, etc) through the switch, just the video.

I can tell you, IMHO I don't think you will get anywhere near the performance of the Emotiva combo from a receiver. Still, with things changing rapidly with the HD formats, you may be better off getting a receiver with all the features and pairing it with an external amp such as the MPS-1, Outlaw, etc.
 

Seth=L

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In all actuality we should all wait for the receivers and processors that will decode the high resolution audio formats such as Dolby HD and DTS HD. I am not certain, but I don't think that these options are available yet on audio equipment other than the onboard decoders of the Blu Ray and HD-DVD players have.

Seth=L
 

JediFonger

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nikko, it's all going to come down to $ w/components you buy either now or later. how much are you willing to part with?

imho, anything under $1500-2000 is an AV Receiver, but $2,000+ you can start to get serious about choosing separates. $1,000 for amp and $1,000 for processor sounds reasonable as a starting point. optimally, i'd have to $3,000 so you can allocate more/less $ to either the amp(s) or processor as you wish.

and if you can wait, you should. that receiver you have isn't half bad. i don't think you'll die if you keep that on hand until HDMI 1.3 AVR AND Processors finally come out.
 

Nikko

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YiFeng, have you ever listened to those B&W notolus speakers in your avitar. If so, how good do they sound and what is a rough price estimate? And I can wait on getting the stuff, It'll still be a little while at least. Can someone explain HDMI to me please. And so it's the processors that need upgrades, not the amps? Meaning I could buy that MPS-1 amp and not have to upgrade it for many years still right, just wait on the processor?
 

Seth=L

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HDMI is an all digital interface that has a high enough capacity to carry 1080p video and a high resolution audio track simultaneously. Version 1.3 interface of HDMI is the only one that can do 1080p. The version is based upon the equipment the cable is connected to not the cable itself. Currently, at least to my knowledge, there isn't a receiver or processor available that can decode the new high resolution formats; DTS HD, DD plus, DD HD, and MLP lossless pcm.

Also the amplifier more than likely won't need upgraded untill you buy more demanding speakers or if you simply don't like the amplifier. You can buy processors that are ready for the future that have firmware upgrades and modular designs. So if HDMI 1.3 becomes available on home audio products as well as the newer surround formats, then the processor can be upgraded with new firmware which are generally free and maybe a new HDMI 1.3 module. In effect many processors are the now and future and could actually save you money! Keep in mind not all processors have this ability but here are some that do: B&K reference 50 and some of it's predecessors, Sherwood Newcastle 965, Outlaw 990 and 970 (firmware only from what I figure), Rotel RSP-1098.

Seth=L
 

Nick:G

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The B&W Model Nautilus is a special market speaker that's produced in very limited quantities and I've never been to store that actually displays them. I did get to hear a pair at a convention, hooked up to eight (that's right, EIGHT) Classe CA-M400 mono blocks. Simply phenomenal...

Those speakers are $40,000/pair MSRP and they are 4-way active with external crossovers (super tweeter, tweeter, mid, and bass, meaning you need 4 separate 2-channel amps (or 8 mono blocks) to properly run them. If you were to run those off of Classe CA-M400's for example, you'd be looking at $80,000 total, not including the preamp and sources. Pretty outrageous...

But, this was a pivotal speaker for B&W's engineering, because much of its technology has been trickled down over the years to far less expensive models.
 

JediFonger

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i have, but i don't own it =). it's nice avatar for aesthetic reasons only. perhaps i should change it to the DM303, since that's what i own, entry-level (trickle down) el cheapo. when i listen to it, i don't stay long because i don't want to tempt myself into remortgaging my entire life just for a pair of speakers =). i also think that beyond a certain price point, you'll get less bang for the buck. however, like the barenaked ladies song, if i had a million dollars... i wouldn't preclude myself from owning a pair... or two. but the pictures don't do it justice, they are HUGE! you'll have to buy a multimillion dollar home first to house these monsters. they're each about the size of a Danny Devito. my local spearit audio (com ave) demos a pair... though how one transports such a beast out of that store is an interesting question.

re: HDMI, check this out:
http://hdmi.org/about/faq.asp
^most of what you need2know about HDMI.

well, if you're gonna get into separates. i'd advise you to get good amps, clean power for your home first, and then concentrate on what features you want from the processor. since we're in transition from HDMI 1.x to 1.3, i'd buy an el cheapo (if there is such a thing) processor like the 5.1 rotels that does basic DD and DTS and then wait for HDMI 1.3 processors to come out in 2007 or 2008.

 

Nikko

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ya, I found those speakers when exploring the B&W website. At first I thought the were nice looking bookshelf speakers ment to act more as display at a oober fancy home, I was like "ah, how cute. Then I looked at the specks I changed my mind after that. They didn't even carry them in San Francisco.

And so from what I think you said is that with current processors, you don't even get a 1080p resoplution from the new disks yet becuase no processors recognize it? But I wonder, with the blu ray player, it has an s-video output and a mutli-channel output built in, so why exactly would you sill need a processor? What would a processor do for video that this wouldn't? Oh, and the link was very informative
 

JediFonger

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as many here can answer:

1. HDMI specifies the standard of HDMI only. they don't spec. HDCP, they don't REQUIRE manufacturers to include any of the features they listed (except the basic hardware termination connectors). an example would be 1080p that is already spec'd in version 1.0 but not a lot of mfr's of HDTV's, AVR's made equipment to support it because there is little (only PC downloads of 1080p caps) 1080p content (back then).

2. that means that in order for you to "experience" 1080p bliss, you need the HDTV to be able to accept 1080p over DVI/HDMI on the spec, you need the source player to be outputting 1080p on the spec, and finally you need the source material ITSELF to be 1080p mastered.

3. the mfr's can decide whether or not to include 1080p or NOT. i'm not in the market for a 1080p display so i'm really out of touch with what's available, but i think there are a few HDTV's that can accept 1080p over HDMI. some of the westinghouse digitals do (37w3 and 42w2? 47?). some of the newly announced AVR's like the Denon's CI lines now switch 1080p in and out. and as you may or may not know the RCA/Samsung BluRay models and Toshiba's HD-DVD doesn't really output 1080p over HDMI. it'll be next year before that happens? but one thing is really cool is some of the HD-DVDs are 1080p mastered.

4. thus, you can already
a. purchase a few (not many compared to component input) HDTV's that can accept 1080p currently. others can provide you more info about that.
b. purchase 1080p SOURCE material on mediums such as HD-DVD or DVDROMs like T2: Extreme Edition and BluRay (but i'd wait for VC-1 1080p, imho).

by late 2007, i expect to be able to have a few choices in:
a. both AVR's and separates that switch 1080p HDMI as well as accept 1.3 so it can decode Dolby TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD Master and hopefully SACD and DVD-Audio MLP on top of the regular DD-EX, DTS-ES6.1 discrete, etc.
b. both HD-DVD and BluRay players that use HDMI 1.3 to output Dolby TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD Master and hopefully SACD and DVD-Audio MLP on top of the regular DD-EX, DTS-ES6.1 discrete, etc. and of course true 1080p.
c. both HD-DVD and BluRay ROMS that i can install into HTPC's to playback HD-DVD and BluRay or possibly a universal ROM =). just need a reader now, burner will come later.

5. what processor are you referring to? hopefully, what i've outlined above answers your questions.

 

Nikko

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I'm sorry, I meant preamp, not processor (been looking at getting a laptop lately, mix up). When you say "1080p over HDMI" do you mean there is another way to output 1080P? And if the new players don't output 1080p yet, what are they doing video wise that a dvd ain't.
And theoretically, when the new bluray and HD players come out, you would be able to plug them diretly into an amp using the multi channel output and directly to the tv using (correct me if I'm wrong) an HDMI output? And you would still be able to play cd's on them in 2.1 as well? So what purpose other than 5.1 to 7.1 switching and music channel replication (sorry I don't know the tech term, but like 2.1 to 5.1 i.e. prologic or neo6) would a preamp serve? So if I only wanted 5.1 movies and 2.1 music, why would I even need a preamp? And thanks for the help and sorry for the excessive questions
 

JediFonger

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preamp+processor are the same to me.

the other way to output 1080p is computer's VGA and DVI connections if you plan to have HTPC.

samsung's kinda' does 1080p via HDMI... and kinda' doesn't. you should look into HT hardware's thread about that. i'm not too sure, it's supposed to be a "fake" 1080p via HDMI and not "true 1080p". either way taht doesn't matter because the source, being HD-DVD&BR movies, are encoded at 1080p while SD-DVD is not. that's the big difference for the clarity of color, etc. check it out @BB or whichever store is displaying HD-DVD/BR. basically, HD-DVD/BR holds more information than SD-DVD's (provided the studio masters it correctly).

uh... physically, you could connect HD/BR player's 5.1 or x.1 analog rca output from player directly to amp... but that would mean you can't control the volume and that would mean you might either go deaf before the equipment fails or vice versa. since there's no volume limiter (nor preamp/processor), it will be on full blast all the time, the equivalent of "0 dB" setting. i believe they call it reference level. some commercial cinemas are equiped like that. that's one of the reasons why you need a preamp

HDMI passes everything including stereo 2.x.

a preamp/processor is your "command central/center" for handling all inputs and outputs, audio and video, digitally and analog-ly. let's say that you could plug HD players' analog outputs directly into the amp, well, if you want to watch cable, you have to physically unplug the plugs and plug the cable box into the amp.

logistics, that's another reason for preamp. there are many, many reasons... (bass management, etc.) search around here or everywhere, it's fairly obvious why a preamp is needed to be the heart of a HT.



 

JeremyErwin

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a good hdmi-1.3 pre pro might provide:

room correction
support for 7.1 channels
flexible crossover
timbre matching
volume control
automatic calibration
switching
decoding of more advanced formats
support for balanced connections (allows for really long cable runs)
DSP effects
support for multiple subwoofers
zones
dsd/sacd support
video and pcm upsampling.

but if you want to get right down to it, a preamp is just a switch with a volume control. Oh sure, it pre amplified the signal from pre-CD components (like phonographs), but it wasn't absolutely essential-- if your amplifier or CD player had a volume control-- and some did.
 

JediFonger

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well, for some of the prices of preamps out there, i'd like to see a cappachuino machine built in as well ;)
 

JeremyErwin

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wouldn't that add thermal noise to the signal? No, in my mind, one has to keep the cappacino and pre-amplification functions separate.
 

Nikko

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okay, so ya. I guess I do need to control the volume. Is there a quality level of decoding between different preamps assuming they both have the different kinds (I know most, but can I get a list just to be sure)? Room correction is about the same in all, crossover meh*, timber matching meh, DSP effects?, multiple subs maybe, zones mah, dsd/sacd?, mountain dew dispenser yes.

*meh means don't really care/isn't a factor that I worry about
 

arjun

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I am kind of late in this discussion but here is what I noticed when I went from a 3801 as a preamp to a Ref 50. Right out of the box without any tweaking the ref 50 sounded much cleaner and transparent. Had a much bigger soundstage and the sound seemed clean even at high volumes. The bass was tighter and cleaner as well. The 3801 did a respectable job as a preamp but the ref 50 took it to another level. The soundstage now had height and width much beyond the physical boundaries of my speakers. I now have set it up to the most basic level with speaker levels and distance calibration but havent played with any of the room eg modes or the notch filter. I am guessing things are only going to get better from here. In a nut shell I love the third dimension that my preamp has added. I am never going back to receivers again no matter how feature laden they are.

Just my humble opinion....YMMV
AJ.
 

Dave Moritz

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I would not buy a reciever or preamp processor yet, here is why I say this:

1. HDMI 1.3v where just approved that will give you 1080p HDMI switching.

2. Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD will be included in the new processors coming out ether at the end of this year or sometime next year.

Unless you can afford to buy another reciever next year to replace the one you buy now. Then I guess you could go ahead and buy one. I am in the same boat, I currently own a Yamaha RX-V995 surround reciever (5.1) and it has no component video switching, no hdmi, no DTS-ES or DD-EX processing and limited digital inputs. It has worked well for the 7 plus years I have used it. But it is well past time for an upgrade.

However I will not buy another reciever until the new HDMI 1.3 switching is included and the new processors with the new surround formats are included as well. I would highly suggest that you wait for the new recievers unless you have no interest in the new formats and getting an HD player.
 

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