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Presumed Innocent/Frantic Blu-Ray - Double Feature Review (1 Viewer)

James Luckard

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Originally Posted by Mark-P
Are you sure it includes an English track? I don't see "Anglais" in any of the "Langues"
 
 
It's in the linked review, English 2.0 DTSHD.
 
The review also talks about the differences (minimal) between the included English and "French" tracks.
 
The Amazon.fr description is incorrect in many ways. The list of languages is completely wrong, and it even says the film is Cinemascope, when it's 1.85
 
This review also mentions the English track:
 
http://www.parutions.com/index.php?pid=3&rid=90&srid=0&ida=1785
 
As does this sales link:
 
http://www.chapitre.com/CHAPITRE/fr/DVD/polanski-roman/frantic,31092862.aspx
 
Google "Frantic blu allemand" and you'll find loads of links selling it.
 
I'm just going to buy from Amazon since I already have an American account there, and I suspect many other people here do too, so it's easier.
 

James Luckard

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BTW, the hideous packaging on the Amazon page is just a cardboard slipcover. The disc comes instandard Blu-Ray packaging, and since the film's a French production, I kind of like the idea of having a case that says "Harrison Ford dans Frantic, Un Film de Roman Polanski".
 

Will*B

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Thanks for letting us know about this James.
 
I ordered the disc yesterday, and it's just been shipped. Will post full details once it arrives (usually takes about a week from Amazon.fr to Australia).
 
Thanks again!
 

James Luckard

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I ordered yesterday too, we'll have a race to see whose postal service gets it to us first:)
 
Can't wait to junk my horrible American disc. Am hoping I can get some sort of refund, but since Warner Bros doesn't seem to care about the defect, or even understand what I'm talking about, and I bought it from Amazon months ago, I'm not filled with hope.
 


Originally Posted by Will*B
Thanks for letting us know about this James.
 
I ordered the disc yesterday, and it's just been shipped. Will post full details once it arrives (usually takes about a week from Amazon.fr to Australia).
 
Thanks again!
 

Will*B

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I ordered yesterday too, we'll have a race to see whose postal service gets it to us first:)
 
You're on!
 
I'm really pleased that they've released the original version. Frantic is one of my all-time favourites, and the French version really destroys the point of so many scenes, and arguably the entire film...
 
It's a shame Warner US couldn't be bothered to understand / fix the problem, but at least now we have an option. I'll be giving the US disc to a friend - I'm not a big fan of Presumed Innocent anyway, and the recipient isn't a big enough fan of Frantic to worry about the dubbed scenes!
 

Will*B

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Bad news everyone.
 
The French BD arrived today, and I can confirm that it does NOT contain the correct English soundtrack.
 
Even though it has separate English and French tracks, they are both IDENTICAL, apart from the bit-rate.
 
Imagine the disappointment when I heard Harrison Ford announce that "nous avons un reservation" on both tracks....
 
Looks like the hunt for the correct version is back on. Sorry guys.....
 

James Luckard

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Okay, I'm calling on anyone who's been reading this thread for help!
 
Warner Home Video specifically said they weren't doing anything about the audio error because I was "the only person who has called in" about this problem.
 
We need to fix that, or they'll never take it seriously.
 
Please very politely contact the Warner Home Video office and tell them you'd like this error fixed!
 
The number is (818) 977-6065
 
Say absolutely nothing unpleasant, please, it's counterproductive.
 
Just say that you've encountered this audio error and want the Blu-Ray to be repressed, like they did so well on Superman: The Movie (never hurts to kiss up a little:)
 
Please add an update here after you call, I'll be calling as soon as my disc arrives from France.
 

James Luckard

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Well, I now have TWO useless coasters/Frantic Blu-Rays.
 
Aargh!
 
I'm guessing the HD master of the film that will be used everywhere is defective, so I'm not holding out hope for a proper Blu of the film. I'm certainly not taking the risk of ordering another version. Although I will be curious about the UK disc, when it comes out.
 

James Luckard

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There appears to be a Hong Kong Blu-Ray edition of the film now.

With defective American and French Blus and a Greman Blu that didn't even bother to include a track labeled "English", defective or not, I'm not too hopeful.

Having bought the film twice already, I'm also reluctant to buy it a third time.

That said, if anyone on here is willing to take the plunge and order it - Will*B? - maybe we can find out.

http://www.yesasia.com/global/frantic-blu-ray-hong-kong-version/1022740180-0-0-0-en/info.html

This is clearly a completely new release, as it has English-language cover art for just FRANTIC for the first time.
 

Will*B

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Hey James,

It's tempting, but I'm not sure I can risk getting yet another dud copy. Looking at the specs on the back-cover scan, it seems that this new disc has exactly the same specs (audio & sub options) as the French disc, so I would suspect it is the very same disc, especially as the French disc is region-free.

I actually watched the French disc for the first time a few weeks ago, and was predictably distracted by the 'French' audio in the first 1/3 or so. After that, the changes were few and far between, so it didn't completely stop my enjoyment of the film. (I think it's the "Qu'est-ce que vous voir exactly?" line that annoys me most).

It's such a shame Warner couldn't be bothered to sort this out. I sent emails to both Warner US, as well as Warner Bros. France, and pretty much received the same response from both - ie. nothing new, and no plans for a repressing.

I really hope that a release gets it right at some point in the future. I suppose the best we have to hope for now is that there'll be a future special edition of this film that might rectify things with a new sound mix. Until then, I think we're pretty much stuck with Harrison Ford's bad accent.

I'm always on the lookout for more details on this though (I'm amazed we seem to be the only ones who care about this!), and will update this thread as and when....

Cheers,
Will
 

James Luckard

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No worries, I'm in the same boat, not willing to give Warner Bros more of my hard-earned money for another useless piece of plastic. I was so mad to discover my French disc was a coaster too. And you're right, I don't hold out much hope of them fixing this.

My biggest fear is that I think Blu-Ray will be the last physical medium, meaning the only release ever of Frantic in widescreen with the proper audio will be the godawful British DVD, with pixely video and 4% PAL speedup that makes all the popsongs sound like... well... like they're being played at the wrong speed.

I haven't watched the Blu all the way through, but found the scene where the two French guys in the apartment speak in now unsubtitled French to be unwatchable, especially when Ford at the end says "I am an American and I am crazy", in response to a line they said that's now in French. A language he "doesn't speak". Aargh.
 

James Luckard

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It really boggles my mind that Polanski ever prepared this audio track.

I get that the film was released in France largely in English, with subtitles, to create an artistic effect.

But what effect?

Seriously, did Polanski actually think that, to a French-speaking audience, Ford speaking basic French pretty well equates to how I, as a non-French speaker, would view someone who doesn't understand a word of the language?

It's thoroughly bizarre.
 

Douglas R

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At the risk of confusing this issue of the audio track even further, it seems that there is another alternative language track. Yesterday the film was shown here in the UK on one of the main network TV stations in HD. I don't have the Blu-ray disc (I've been waiting to see if a UK version will be released) so can only compare it with the U.K. DVD English and French language tracks and James' description. The version which was broadcast was neither the English nor French track but something in-between! It still has Harrison Ford speaking occasional French such as asking the bellboy what time it is in French and slipping into French in the scene with the bearded guy in the alley. Most of the dialogue when Ford and his Betty Buckley first enter the hotel is also in French and the French characters speak to each other in French or with an accent when speaking Engish. However when the cops interrogate Emmanuelle Seigner in her apartment they speak English as in the English DVD track, which as I understand it is not the case in the Blu-ray English language track. To me, having the French cops speaking English with Seigner in this version only adds to the confusion. Why would they do that when in the rest of this version French characters speak to each other in French? Other than that, whenever I start watching the film I always find myself drawn into it - a testament to Polanski's filmmaking skill.
 

James Luckard

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It sounds like somebody somewhere at Warners recognized that the "French" track renders portions of the film meaningless, like that scene.

And it sounds like, insanely, they've created some horrible hybrid version, thinking the 'French" track, which was only ever intended to be run in French cinemas, was actually Polanski's artistic intention for the film as a whole.

The entire film is meant to be in English -- every word. You can clearly see that the mouth of every French actor moves to the English dialogue.

However of all the bits dubbed into French, it's the scene with the two cops that damages the film most on the current Blu-Ray. It's entirely in French now, and has no subtitles except for the useless "Speaking French".

It sounds like a version has been created with that scene switched back into English, and nothing else.

Aargh!

All the existing DVDs of Frantic have issues of some sort - atrocious-quicktime-video-quality pan-and-scan US vs PAL-sped-up nearly-as-bad-image-quality widescreen UK, and now it seems like there will never be a decent HD version.
 

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Okay James, having now purchased this blu-ray and having watched Frantic all the way through, I am now going to officially weigh in on this debate – There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with this disc and now I understand why Warner is ignoring your complaints. Yes, it is established in the movie that Richard Walker doesn’t speak French, but he is a tourist in France and knows a few key phrases such at “What time is it?” He only speaks a very few words of French mostly to the hotel staff. I’ll take your word that in the previous DVD version 100% of his lines were in English. So somewhere along the line (and I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to the filmmakers) they decided that realistically some of those lines that Walker speaks to the hotel staff should have been in French, so they changed them. Perhaps it was even Polanski’s original intent to have those lines in French and they are finally deferring to his wishes. In any case, it is not a problem and Warner should not be harassed about this any further.

And regarding the picture quality, it looked fabulous and very film-like projected in 1080P. This double feature blu-ray is definitely a must-buy for anyone who likes these films.


Originally Posted by James Luckard
It really boggles my mind that Polanski ever prepared this audio track.
 

Will*B

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Quote:


Originally Posted by Mark-P /forum/thread/299499/htf-blu-ray-review-presumed-innocent-frantic-double-feature/30#post_3771393



There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with this disc and now I understand why Warner is ignoring your complaints.





In any case, it is not a problem and Warner should not be harassed about this any further.




I'm pleased that the soundtrack errors didn't spoil your enjoyment of this fantastic film. However, there is most certainly a problem with this disc, Warner isn't right to ignore our complaints, and the act of registering these complaints hardly constitutes harassment.

As I said, it's great that you can overlook the disc's problems, but please don't try to undermine the efforts of those who choose to care more about a film's original and correct presentation than you do.
 

Mark-P

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Who's to say that this ISN'T the correct presentation? Until I hear from Polanski that it isn't, I'll give Warner the benefit of the doubt.
Allow me to further elaborate. There are many films available on blu-ray only in a version that has been altered from the original theatrical presentation, such as Amadeus, and The Last of the Mohicans. If the complaint is that Frantic should have the unaltered version too, fine I agree with that. But no one is saying Amadeus is a defective blu-ray and needs to be recalled just because it's not the theatrical cut. I absolutely agree blu-ray's should always contain the original presentations too, and directors like Speilberg agree. However it doesn't always happen. Go ahead and petition Warner that you'd like an additional release of Frantic in it's original theatrical form, but the current disc is not wrong or bad, it just is.


Originally Posted by Will*B
As I said, it's great that you can overlook the disc's problems, but please don't try to undermine the efforts of those who choose to care more about a film's original and correct presentation than you do.
 

James Luckard

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Yikes! You seem quite sure of yourself. I have to admit I'm only just seeing this response.

As Will B says, I'm happy that you were able to enjoy the film, but this video release does not represent the film as it has been released in the past, and the change is the inclusion of an original audio element created in 1988 for the film's French release. For proof of that, just look at the French Blu-Ray, which contains the same track labeled as both 'French" and "English", vs every previous video release of the film in the US and UK, which has been completely in English. Also many French Blu-Ray reviews talk about the track's use in French cinemas.

Ford speaks more than "a few words" that a tourist could reasonably understand, however. Just look at his conversation with the little man in the alley again, which I pointed out earlier. He speaks fluent French, moving back and forth from it to English. At one point his line ""What exactly did you see?" becomes, in the "French" version, "Quoi, exactly, vous voir ici?". Anybody who could construct that sentence off the cuff would not need help translating a simple phone message, as he does later.

I'm not denying that Polanski created the composite language track, in fact I always granted that he must have, since it's Ford and Buckley's own voices. I think the inclusion of it is a wonderful bonus, except the English subtitles for the French scenes should say more than just "Speaking French", since the film originally ran in this form in a country where people were meant to understand the dialogue.

I will also grant you that there's a miniscule chance that Polanski actually wanted the change made, though on a bargain-priced catalog title I doubt Warners went to the effort to find out. It's far more logical to assume they simply made an error, as the first ten mins of both audio tracks are identical. Hopefully, though, we may soon have an answer...



Originally Posted by Mark-P
Who's to say that this ISN'T the correct presentation? Until I hear from Polanski that it isn't, I'll give Warner the benefit of the doubt.
Allow me to further elaborate. There are many films available on blu-ray only in a version that has been altered from the original theatrical presentation, such as Amadeus, and The Last of the Mohicans. If the complaint is that Frantic should have the unaltered version too, fine I agree with that. But no one is saying Amadeus is a defective blu-ray and needs to be recalled just because it's not the theatrical cut. I absolutely agree blu-ray's should always contain the original presentations too, and directors like Speilberg agree. However it doesn't always happen. Go ahead and petition Warner that you'd like an additional release of Frantic in it's original theatrical form, but the current disc is not wrong or bad, it just is.
 

James Luckard

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I hope I may finally have a definitive answer, at least about whether the change was an artistic decision for the Blu-Ray. I already have part of one.

After long since giving up on hearing from Warner Bros, I was talking recently with someone at work who had seen the film on HDTV, in its new form. I realized the HiDef master is now like this, meaning the film is changed forever.

I had to know if it was a change Mr. Polanski wanted and agrees with.

So I found his production company phone number in Paris at RP Productions and called on Monday morning.

After going through two people who didn't speak a word of English (only fitting for FRANTIC:), I was passed to his assistant.

I explained, very politely, my question, and that I was unsure if this was a mistake by Warners or an artistic choice.

She took me very seriously, which was a relief. She said they have nothing at all to with the Blu-Ray, it's all done by whoever owns the rights in each country. She had never seen the disc herself as she doesn't have a player.

Once I explained a bit of what I had found, she asked me to email her a letter (I had already written one, so I sent it immediately).

She said, "Monsieur Polanski is on set right now, but I'll be sure he sees it in the next few days." Quite a thrill to hear that sentence, I'll tell you:)

I wrote the letter very politely as well, acknowledging that I don't know if this is an artistic choice. The last thing I want to do is insult one of the world's great filmmakers.

However, her statement that Polanski's office had nothing to do with the Blu-Ray production definitely suggests this is an error, and not an artistic choice.

The film has not yet been released on Blu-Ray in the UK, so my big hope is that the master can be corrected with the addition of the original English track for that release. I have no personal desire to see the French track removed, it's a cool extra. I'm not foolish enough to think the American, French, Hong Kong, etc, discs will be repressed, but it would be nice to have one version represent the original American theatrical version.

I looked his assistant up on IMDB, she has worked with him since 1994, and worked on FRANTIC herself.

More to follow:)
 

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