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Pre Klipsch Aragon vs Parasound amps (2 Viewers)

Yogi

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With horn loaded speakers I wouldn't even dare imagine Aragon unless you got hot ears that need some cooling:). Plus they usually are so sensitive that you dont need much power. If your speakers are 99db sensitive then you dont need more than 20W (~12db gain) of power because you know what 111db of SPL can do to your ears.
 

Ricky T

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John Curl said that the bigger Parasound amps have better parts and design than the others. This would include: 3500, 2200II, 2003A, 2205, and I think the 1500A.

On the new Halo series, the models ending in "1 "(JC1, A21, A51) are of a higher quality than the ones ending in "3" (P23, A23) or "2".

If I compared my 2200II amps with non-Palladium Aragons, I think the gap would be smaller. The Aragon 4004mkII seems the equal of the 2200II in everyway: price, power, sound quality. The 8008BB are perhaps a half-step above these two.

Some choices in the $1500-1800 used range for 5 amp channels:
2 Citation 5.1 amps (1100, 8 channels -- bridge/biamp mains?)
Parasound 2205A (1100)
Parasound 1500A (500) + 2003A (700) = 1200
ATI 2505 (1400 new)
2 Citation 7.1 amps (1700, 8 channels)
Aragon 8008x3 (1200) + 8002 (600)
Cinenova Grande 300x5 (1800?)
 

John-Tompkins

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Not bad advise ! ..If your gonna switch then do it up right to start with..Im Sooo tired of lugging 90lb amps back and forth :)
 

John-Tompkins

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I'll just borrow a couple of extra proceed or bryston or acurus amps you happen to have laying around in Kevin's amp warehouse :)..

Na, Actually I just made a purchase today :D . Bought a used EAD PM2000. Specs look very nice and so does the amp btw. 400X5@8ohms, 700x5@4ohms, 1000x5@2ohms with less then .03 thd all channels driven ( If you believe ead's specs)..I believe stereophile rated it at 363w all channels driven. True balanced design and also rca's. It has power steering to one channel as it runs off of one big torodial transformer.Weighs 115 pounds but the bad thing is that it's 24" deep !

Now I know it isnt in the same league as Gemstone but it'll have to do :) .

I will drive my 5 mains with the ead, and I havent decided if Im gonna keep the crown k2 for my svs's and b5 woofers or use one of the other two crown pro amps I have right now. One crown for the back two speakers...so either way, watts wont be a problem ..compensating for my small em ,,feet yea thats it :b
 

Kevin C Brown

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He's joking. That's why the smiley face. ;)

I'm not sure I believe all the hype surrounding the Gemstone either. Not until it gets properly measured somewhere.

My main problem with it is this:

Even for the 7 channel amp, the idle power usage is stated as being only 40 watts. Idle power usage is an indirect measure of class A bias. The Proceed AMP 5 has an idle power usage of almost 250W. (And the Proceed is only rated at 125W/ch, while the Gemstone is rated at 200W/ch.) Most people would agree, that more class A bias is preferred from a performance standpoint, as you maintain operation of the output devices in their linear range.

Shoot, now I have to go and research EAD...
 

John-Tompkins

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Kevin, take a look at audioreview. I take the audioreview website reviews with a grain of salt but ead pm 2000 has a perfect 5 star rating from 20 reviews and all those people have owned and compared it to some bigtime heavy hitting mega-buck amps like theta,krell,bryston,proceed,aragon etc..again taken with a grain of salt but I do put more weight into reviewers who have owned and compared these type of amps. also the ead pm 1000 and ead 500 have a perfect 5 star rating. Sam Stone (I believe thats his name) at stereophile wrote a raving review on it.
One last thing thats kinda funny. If you read the ead pm2000 reviews over at audioreview you will see that the very first reviewer ( back in 99) was SteveH from Mn. He is the Gemstone dealer on avsforum and the creator of the ht amp shootout over there. Anyway this is his quote:

Summary:
I did not see any reviews on the new EAD PowerMaster 2000 so I decided write down some impressions.... I did an installation here in MN on a highend system (I am a EAD dealer) using Dynaudio 3.3's, Lexicon DC-2 (customer demanded the Lex) and Velodyne HGS-18 for the sub. I spec'ed in the amp base off of blind faith as well as reviews from other dealer freinds. I was a bit reserved since the EAD room did not sound all that great at the CES show in Vegas (Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen II in a bad room using the prototype PowerMaster) but I know EAD will only release audiophile caliber gear. I unpackaged the (144 pound) box and instantly fell in love with the build quality. If you have ever experienced the build quality of the Ultra Disk 2000 or the Encore/Ovation/Signiture pre-pro's you know what I am talking about. EAD does not sacrifice at all on component selection (other than the Ultra Disk 200 remote which is plastic and cheap feeling).Dan Sperry of EAD promised me I would be happy based off of initial reports and he was correct. It outperformed ALL of the 5 channels I carry (and have heard) in openess, base management (tight well controlled base). I would describe it as a neutral sounding amp similar to the Plinius 2 channel SA100MKIII although the Plinius has a little more detail. If you need to drive power hungry (Dynaudio, Magnaplaners, Electrostatics etc) this 400 watt x 5 amp will deliver more power than you need. The Bryston 9B clipped using the Dyn's and needless to say the EAD did not. EAD's reasoning behind the 400 watt per channel is because they felt all other multi channel amps do clip and they verified this at the conceptino of this product (I don't know if this is true or not). Simply put, if you are in the market for a fine (and expensive) multi channel amp that is of Audiophile standards, this should be on your short list to listen to and buy. I fully expect the reviews in the magizines to fall in love with this product. Don't be surprised to hear words like "reference multi channel amp" or better than Proceed etc.
Needless to say I was impressed. I plan on getting one for my system as soon as the supply catches up (3 week lead time but dropping). Hope this helps...
Authorized Lines:
ATI, Acurus, Aerial Acoustics, Aragon, B&K, Bryston, Class'e, Cinepro, DynAudio, EAD (Enlightend Audio Designs), Energy (Local Only), Gallo Acoustics, Gershman Acoustics (Beautiful Sounding and looking speakers), Innersound (ElectroStatic), Lexicon (Local Only), Marantz (Local Only), M&K, Monitor Audio, NHT, Panamax, Parasound, Pioneer (Not Elite), Plinius, Sherwood NewCastle, Toshiba, & Velodyne.....................

PS. The EAD amp was not a part of the "amp shootout" with the Gemstone and other amps on avs last month because they didnt have one available.
 

Ricky T

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Kevin,

In this review Steve mentioned the 9bst clipping...funny, John sold his Lexicon NT512 (aka 9bst) because he was clipping it with his 85db low sensitivity NHT M5s..... and the EAD should not.

Interestingly, I heard the PM2000 with Ovation prepro on Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen II speakers at my friend/dealer's house about 4 years ago.

I believe Stereophile tested the PM2000 at 363x5 and 450-500 wpc in stereo (not bad for a 2.0kVA transformer). But I don't think this big amp is in your future; if you can't fit the 23.5" deep Aragon 8008x5 in your rack, then the 24" deep EAD might be a problem :)
 

Kevin C Brown

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I'm just wondering if they have a lower power version... ;) (Haven't consulted my previous S&V, Audio, and HT mag eqp directories yet.)

I didn't see any reviews at ecoustics.com or at Stereophile (at least on their web site), or even here:

http://www.stereophile.com/images/ma...poweramps.html

Are they still in business? I couldn't find a company web site either. Certainly nice looking.
 

John-Tompkins

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Kevin,

They are still in business and have a new line up of amps as well. They were bought out by Alpha Digital Tech. A link to thier site below. Also there website has a link to a sterephile review. There is the pm500 (100x5), pm1000 (200x5)..One caveat about the review is that the EAD amps seem to absolutely need a dedicated 20 amp line to thrive ..when line voltages dipped it made the ead's power output clip at much lower levels. EAD says it will work on 15 amps but that it will be "restricted in its output capability"


http://www.alphadigitaltech.com/prod...owermaster.htm
 

Kevin C Brown

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Luckily, my family room does have 20A circuits. ;)

I can't tell if they ever did any 2 ch models.

And this always raises a question: "Damping Factor > 80". I thought you wanted a high damping factor? Has something to do with "fast" bast response or something. The PM 500 weighs 40 lbs and uses 30W at idle.
 

John-Tompkins

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Yea, Im not sure what to think about the extremly low damping factors on all of the ead's.Every review I have read on the pm 2000 said it had very tight controlled bass. However Im using the Crown k2 for my T5's- b5 woofers anyhow..so everything below 80hz will be seeing a damping factor of over 2000 on the K2:emoji_thumbsup:
The pm2000 is 115lbs, it uses 120 watts at idle, 2300 watts full power ( I read somewhere it is 10 watts class A before switching )..Im not sure
Ive read on avs that the ead amps use a different design philoshy then everbody else, using some sorta semi-conductor in the final analog stage,, acculinear? design with nmicrowave speed circuit board layouts (I have know idea what this is), a 1/2 million micro-farards of computer grade high speed capacitance (is this good ?).

EAD never has made a two channel amp.

I dont buy this quote fro ead:
During stereo playback with low-impedance loads, dynamic energy steering transforms the pm2000 into a 2000 watt ultra-high end two channel amp.

However, there seem to be alot of people (including the guy I bought mine from) that are using it as a stereo amp. He was drivng a pair of Vienna Maulers that dip down to two ohms and are extremly hard to drive..He said it never came close to running out of steam.He said he couldnt find a better stereo amp..but he's gonna try a Pass x350

PS...It just occured to me, This is a Parasound/Aragon thread..
Sorry for the EAD interruption:b
 

Eric A

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Jan 3, 2001
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Ricky,
I noticed a mistake/misprint/omission in your amp spreadsheet. I spoke to Parasound this week and Brad told me that all the new Halo's are spec'd/biased at 8% class A of total power. I verified that this was for the 5 channels as well. This would mean that the "1" series amps are biased class A to 20 watts and the "2/3" series amps are biased class A to 10 watts. He said they were bumped up from the the old Parasound amps. Just thought I would chime in here.
 

Yogi

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A note on damping factor:
Any damping factor over 20-30 is useless in practical terms and is just a marketing ploy, IMHO. For a better explanation go here:

http://www.trueaudio.com/post_013.htm

A note on Class A amps:
The way an amplifier sounds is more a function of its design and how its implemented and not on the way the output stages are biased, IMHO. I once spoke to a Madrigal tech back when I worked in Middletown, CT and came to know that Proceed amps are not biased into Class A at all. They are entirely Class AB, but to my ears and to most others I know, they sound much more refined and musical then Parasound amps that are supposedly biased into Class A for the first few watts. So in selecting amps my advice is to not worry about Class A or AB but to just listen and decide based on your ears. Your ears are the best instruments you can ever lay your hands upon, so trust them with the utmost integrity.:)

My 2 rusty cents.
 

Kevin C Brown

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Ahhh, not true. During my decision process between Bryston and Proceed, I got in touch with some Proceed (Mark Levinson) engineers through the HSG web site. They confirmed the "higher than normal" level of class A biasing of all of the Proceed amps. Even at idle (no signal), the heat sinks get hot enough to burn you. (Believe me, I got burned a few times, because I simply could not believe how hot these amps run. I kept touching the heat sinks, getting burned, but thought to myself: Cool! ;) )

With class A operation, there is no switching on and off of the output devices, or between different voltage rails. The knock against class AB, is that it is that very switching that *can* add distortion to the signal.

But there are some certainly fine performing pure class AB amps too. The Simaudio W-3 and W-5 get *very* favorable reviews. But they are only biased 5W into class A.
 

Ricky T

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Eric,

I only listed Class A watts for two Halo amps: JC1 and A21.

The JC1 spec's at 400W. 400 x 8% = 32W. Yet the Halo website (and two mag reviews) refer to the JC1's 25W Class A listing.

http://www.parasound.com/halonew/JC1details.asp

The 2200II was biased 10-12W. The newer A21 has the exact transformer size, power rating into 8 & 4 ohms, weight, output devices per channel, peak amps per channel....if it now has 20W class A, then the total A/B will probably be closer to 250W as the 2200II does more than it's 250W (with 1.2kVA per channel).

The 1205A/Halo A52, 1000A/A23, 2205A/A51 also have the same, near identical specs to each other. Doesn't look like a major redesign to me, despite the 40-50% increase in retail price.

To say that the A23 with one 785VA power transformer (or 393VA per channel) will sound better than the 2200II with TWO 1200VA tranformers is suspect to me. With the 2200II, you have almost 3X the capable power, and over 2X the original retail price. For the A23 to be better seems highly hocus pocus.......
 

Eric A

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Whatever Ricky, I would always believe you over what the technical staff at Parasound quoted me. The last half of your comments have no relevance. Class A biasing has nothing to do with transformer size, output devices or power. Any Class A-A/B amp can be biased higher with the turn of a pot inside the amp. Just go ask John Curl about that and he will comfirm. And also no one said one amp sounded better than another. You are equating Class A biasing to better sound which is not true. I can point out a few amps that are not biased into Class A at all that are universally praised as world class performers. The EAD Powermaster 2000 is just one.
 

Ricky T

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Eric,

John Curl said on audioasylum that the only significantly modified Halo amp is the JC1. So the other models are basically the same. I would trust what John Curl wrote over what anyone else says, including a Parasound employee.

My comments on 2200II/A21 watts are like this: you start with one transformer size. Say 1000VA, if the amp has no bias in Class A, then perhaps it does 500 watts A/B. If you bias the amp 10W in Class A (which increases inefficiency), then your total number of A/B watts should be less than 500. If the amp is biased 50W in A, then the total A/B would be decreased even further.


You think the P3 preamp is better than the former PLD-2000, $2k retail preamp too? Well, this one guy has two JC1s and the PLD-2000...I'm sure he bought the P3 preamp to cosmetically match his JC1s. But in the end, the PLD-2000 just sounds better. And why wouldn't it? It cost the same company, Parasound, about 3X to make.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...1854&read&3&4&
 

Eric A

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Okay okay, I just realized I may have made a mistake in my original post. The Parasound tech, Brad, must have told me all their amps are biased to 6% class A which means the A21 and A51 are biased to 15 watts which is still an increase over the old Parasound products. The A23 and A52 would carry 7.5 watts into Class A. This would also equate to where the JC1 is falling in line at 25 watts. I am most sure he said 8% though and I will check again with him if anyone cares. This may be something no different than published specs vs. what the amp can really do. I do not know.
 

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