Poor quality Blu Ray transfer of "Thunderball" (1 Viewer)

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by cafink

Ziggy said how he took them--using a digital camera pointed at his screen (he said he did this because he can't get Blu-ray captures using his computer, but the DVD screenshots look like photos of the screen, too). This obviously limits the utility of the screenshots, but the purpose was to point out specific defects in the video, and they are indeed perfectly clear in his photos.

Thanks cafink. You put it better than I could have myself. And indeed the DVD screenshots are photos too. I had to be fair.
 

Originally Posted by Mark-P

What is also interesting is that neither scene 2 or scene 3 have identical frames from the DVD and the BD. The difference in frames is most noticeable on scene 2. I'm not sure a valid comparison can be done when the frames differ.

It is extremely difficult to get the exact frames, but rest assured that the flaws are not confined to a single frame, but the entire scene.
 

 

[JoeBond]

Again I do see the scratches are present on the Blu-ray and not on the UE DVD but they are very minor source flaws that effect very few scenes in the movie. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if they could not be removed like I said in my previous post due to losing some natural detail in the process. I'll take the improved color timing which is correct since the colors look more saturated like they were intended to be instead of the only natural looking colors of the UE DVD, and all of the natural detail including source flaws over the UE DVD any day. Frankly a poor transfer for Thunderball's Blu-ray would have been heavy DNR use, edge enhancement, and the amount of dirt this film originally had which if you look at the SE DVD version has a lot more dirt than some of the other films in the series which makes the new Blu-ray is surprisingly clean in comparison.

 

[Neil S. Bulk]

There are gate hairs all over this transfer that are very visible on the Blu-ray. You only need to watch the opening scenes of Largo arriving at the office to see them.

 

The Blu-ray's 5.1 track is the same mix that was heard on the stereo laser disc released in 1996 and later in 5.1 on LD and DVD. The Ultimate Edition DVDs newer "enhanced" 5.1 track is not on the Blu-ray. The earlier track is more accurate to the film's original mono audio.

 

[David_B_K]

Originally Posted by Edwin-S

There are some minor flaws but I, personally, can live with them because the increased picture detail on the BD is worth the trade off.

I agree. Just look at the pattern on Luciana Paluzzi's blouse!

 

[PRO-630HD]

I really think you are on to something here! Lowry would be the best point of contact concerning this issue. To be honest I am not buying for one second Lowry would leave dirt, blemishes, vertical lines etc. on the new 4K masters. Granted any deficiencies would be magnified by the increased resolution of the bluray format from 480i on the dvd. Lowry was paid very well to remaster these titles and they have cleaned up dirty opticals like in the title sequences, removed blemishes, scratches, gate hairs, vertical lines and dirt on all titles and removed strobing effects in TMWTGG on the ferry. For there to be no trace of these deficiencies on the dvd at all is cause for concern. Perhaps the wrong master was used and pressed for the bluray discs. A great question is are these flaws present in the initial S.E. DVD of the film?

 

[Neil S. Bulk]

The gate hairs for Largo's arrival at the office are not present on the DVD.

 

[Geoff_D]

When I first saw the Thunderball BD I was surprised at how much damage was left in, while the other flicks are practically spotless. Lowry probably were paid well, but MGM didn't give them a blank cheque to fund the work. That's why only 9 films got a 4K restoration (Thunderball being one of them) while the others were at 2K.

 

Could simply be that the neg of Thunderball was scratched quite extensively and the cash ran out to tweak it any more in the 4K domain. Lowry delivers their final versions to MGM. MGM decides to tweak them a little more, as a further polish in SD would be meat-and-potatoes stuff for most post houses out there (not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper than keeping Lowry going). And it could be this by-the-numbers approach which led to glaring errors like the blood in the pool being erased on the Euro UE DVDs. Another indication of this could possibly be found in Live And Let Die, which has a horrid contrast boost on the UE DVD but everything's back as it should be for the Blu-ray version. In reverting back to the higher quality source it hasn't worked out quite so well for Thunderball, but them's the breaks.

 

And it's worth bearing in mind that tweaking for one release doesn't always carry over to subsequent versions. The HD DVD of The Fugitive famously has that guy's head poking out while Kimble is clambering from the train wreck, right, but matey was digitally removed for the SE DVD which came out several years prior. And even laserdisc has a prime example: Aliens SE was assembled on video and they fixed a special effects shot and also corrected the out-of-sequence edit when Ripley pulls the guns from the rack aboard the drop-ship. But every version since has been transferred from the neg of the theatrical version and the correctly-timed SE inserts, so the above changes were lost.

 

[breezin]

To all,

As an "average" movie viewer and sometimes technophile, I have enjoyed your technical discussions on the BD release compared to the DVD release of Thunderball. I have viewed the first four BD Bond's and I never noticed any of these flaws while I was watching. I suppose if I went back and looked for them, I would probably see them.
However, I thoroughly enjoyed the BD releases (all my previous versions are VHS) so I do find the discussion somewhat amusing. But perhaps I'm just showing my age...

 

[Geoff_D]

I thought I'd give the BD a spin again after reading this thread, and it's a fine piece of work. Not much in the way of grain, although if going straight from the neg you wouldn't expect a huge amount. That said, the opticals are uniformly smooth and grainless so Lowry have obviously been working their magic on it. Yes, the scratches are still a little distracting but otherwise the PQ is stupendous. Perhaps not truly authentic (as RAH said about one of the earlier Connery Bonds on BD) but terrific all the same.

 

[PRO-630HD]

I checked out the dvd from the library to compare to my bluray. The vertical streaks are prevelent in many scens of the movie. Numerous during the final frogman battle both parachuting and the battle underwater. There is another scene as Connery walks into the casino at 49:19 where a streak is in front of him as he walks through the room.Now the streaks could honestly be visible only now because of the increased resolution of the bluray format. I didn't realize the Tatiana Romanova was NUDE as she walked to the bed before Bond meets her in FRWL. The dirt from the boat scene is barley visible on the dvd but appears to be in the same spots but far lighter. I don't know if when they changed the black levels that these became more prevalent.


One interesting thing though. On the bluray there is a large black gate hair on the top of the letterbox frame hanging down slightly off center during the shotgun scene with Lucianna Paluzzi. Go to 1:10:23. Way to big for the dvd too miss and it is absent on the UE DVD. ? I think the next thing to do would be see if the SE DVD from 2000 has the same errors as the Bluray. The audio is for sure different from the UE dvd. Any other bluray titles with older audio tracks not on the UE dvd's? Also only skimmed through a few scenes and definitely not up too par with the clean up job done on the other titles.

 

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

I really think you are on to something here! Lowry would be the best point of contact concerning this issue. To be honest I am not buying for one second Lowry would leave dirt, blemishes, vertical lines etc. on the new 4K masters. Granted any deficiencies would be magnified by the increased resolution of the bluray format from 480i on the dvd. Lowry was paid very well to remaster these titles and they have cleaned up dirty opticals like in the title sequences, removed blemishes, scratches, gate hairs, vertical lines and dirt on all titles and removed strobing effects in TMWTGG on the ferry. For there to be no trace of these deficiencies on the dvd at all is cause for concern. Perhaps the wrong master was used and pressed for the bluray discs. A great question is are these flaws present in the initial S.E. DVD of the film?

I did in fact contact Lowry and was told by Steve Alvanos, VP of Home Entertainment, that they have no control over the masters once they leave Lowry Digital. He suggested that I contact MGM/Fox Home Video, which I did, but I have still to receive a response from them.

 

[PRO-630HD]

This is what I have an extremely hard time believing, that Lowry doesn't have a digital copy of every film they ever worked on for preservation purposes. In the License to Restore documentary from Dr. No it showed how they can store a film that they mastered on hard drives in a sealed case. As well I would easily think they could look at the Thunderball bluray and know if it is their master. What is the contact info-email for Steve Alvanos? Odd thing is this is the only Bond bluray being Thunderball where I have noticed any print damage.

 

[Ziggy]

Hi PRO


Steve first responded to an e-mail I sent to [email protected], < [COLOR= #ff0000]personal e-mail address edited out by moderator; do not post again - CA[/COLOR] >. The following is the response I got from him:


[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]Hello Ziggy,[/COLOR]


[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]Thank you for the complimentary comments you made about our work on the restorations of the Bond Collection.[/COLOR]


[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]Unfortunately we do not have control over our work once it leaves Lowry Digital. If these issues are of a major concern to you – which it does sound as if they are – please contact Fox Home Video and pose these concerns to them.[/COLOR]


[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]Thank you once again for your support of our restoration efforts.[/COLOR]


[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]Sincerely,[/COLOR]


[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]Steve Alvanos[/COLOR]

[COLOR= rgb(31,73,125)]VP of Home Entertainment[/COLOR]

 

[PRO-630HD]

What I find extremely hard to believe is that Lowry doesn't have masters of every film they ever worked on regardless of the studio. I am not buying it. I am sure they have masters of everything they have ever done. Kept on file in the digital domain on a hard drive in thier facility. The documentary Licence to Restore showed this on the Dr. No bluray. I am sure Mr. Alvanos would be able to at least look at the bluray and know if it is thier master. I will e-mail Mr. Alvanos and post the reply.


http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/tools/otherways/4755.html comment at the bottom of the article, possibly a Lowry employee.




"I have the Bond suitcase in which all films have been restored. Stunning,they look like,especially Dr.No,like films set in the sixties,not made in the sixties. I can't believe they could be better on blu ray,could they?
Posted by Nigel Buckham on Saturday, August 16, 2008 @ 03:59 PM[COLOR= #000000]"[/COLOR]

 

[Cees Alons]

Originally Posted by Ziggy

This is what I have an extremely hard time believing, that Lowry doesn't have a digital copy of every...........

He said CONTROL, not COPY.

No one states they don't keep a copy.



Cees

 

[PRO-630HD]

Then Lowry should easily know if it is their master on the bluray shouldn't they. The bottom line is Mr. Alvanos passed the buck! Giving the master to MGM is not going to introduce print damage not their before.

 

[Ziggy]

I am anxiously awaiting feedback from you regarding your correspondence with Mr Alvanos. Who knows? We might get to the bottom of this.