Please Read Objectively... (1 Viewer)

[Steve_AS]

? If I understand correctly, you've level matched them with an SPL meter to within 1.5 dB. But a +/-1.5dB difference can certainly be audible. The difference you report might have been due entirely to this. And then, once you've level-matched to a better tolerance (e.g. using a VOM as Chu Gai recommends), there's standard sighted bias to account for and neutralize, if you want to *really* 'trust your ears'.
.

 

[TerryHub]

I really don't know how to respond to this situation anymore. The difference I heard was very distict to me. I am at this point going to remain satisfied with my current setup. I spent approximately 5 hours switching back and forth between the two amps and critically listening to so many different audio tracks that I just cannot believe volume levels had anything to do with anything. I know in that time frame I listened at many different volumes. I, without any doubt, did not prefer the Rotel amp I tested with any of the music. I even thought at one point that the warmer sound I was hearing may improve the sound quality of hard rock or metal music. Unfortunately it did not. It wasn't that it was bad, I just really prefer the Sony ES sound; and by a fair margin. I should not need to tweak things and make things so accurately match anything to make a difference like I heard in the sonic quality of either amp. I just do not buy into that at all.

To be honest all the critical listening has really made me appreciate my Sony Es receiver enough to kill my upgrade bug I had on the Rotel or anything else at this time. I'm thinking that is a good thing. I'm also still very disappointed that I may actually not like the sound of Rotel. I have wanted the stuff for at least 8 years or more. I know this simple comparison may not be relative to say the Rotel RSX-1056. I am still curious enough that maybe this fall I'll take up looking at the stuff and actually buy something new to test at home.

I do appreciate everyone's comments. The best advise I got from this is to trust my own ears, so for now that's what I'm going to do.

Thanks again...

 

[terence]

In the end that is what really matters! You did good, you are the only one who has to live with the system. Not us!

BRAVO!

Thx for sharing your experience with us.

 

[Steve_AS]

Since I so often see people on audio groups advising others to 'trust your ears', I figure it's important to mention that 'trusting your ears' isn't as straighforward as it sounds.

Consider this: if given two presentations of audio, otherwise identical except for a small difference in volume, the louder one will tend to be reported as the 'better sounding' of the two by most listeners.
This is why close level matching matters. And too, once you've decided that one unit sounds 'better' than another, it would be impossible to start from a 'clean slate', psychologically, during subsequent comparisons.
THis is one reason why 'masking' the identity of the unit that's playing, is important if you want to depend ONLY on the evidence of your ears.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

From the listenng tests that Terry has done, I think that he hears a different sound from the Rotel as opposed to hearing more volume from the Sony ES.

 

[Angelo.M]

I'm puzzled by statements like this.

 

[JimmyK]

I believe the point Steve was making is that the small level increase isn't perceived as being "louder" or having "more volume", but is often perceived as being "better", ie - more detailed, open, etc.

Regardless, If Terry is happier with the Sony, whether the perceived difference is real or not, then he should stick with the Sony. The bottom line is what he prefers, regardless of the real reasons for that preference.

Terry is, after all, just auditioning to determine what he prefers. Now if he were doing a review for others to read, then I would consider it much more important that he exercise strict control over all variables so that the review would be as objective as possible.

This thread reminds of why I only deal with dealers that have a liberal return policy that allow me to try out equipment in my home on my system to determine what I prefer.

JimmyK

 

[Angelo.M]

I agree: whatever one prefers, regardless of the reason for the preference, is what one ought to use, and enjoy. Never submit to paralysis by analysis; enjoy the music.

There are so many pratfalls when setting up an ABX test, level matching among them. Regardless, even if one were to set up a flawless, blinded examination, all you'll ever know is which ____ (insert "amp", "receiver", etc) you prefer in the test. ABX testing doesn't tell you anything about which gear you'll be happy with over the longer haul. You may express a preference for Amp A versus Amp B for a 10 minute section of Miles Davis' Live at the Plugged Nickel, but Amp B might please your ear (and brain) more consistently over an extended period of time.

Anyway, it's my opinion that amplification is one of the least important factors that affect the performance of your rig. Folks agonize far too much over their source of power and, in some cases, not nearly enough over the speaker choice, room treatments, etc and so on.

I'm off to paint my CDs a darker shade of green...

 

[Kevin Alexander]

I both agree and disagree w/ you Angelo. I agree that not enough attention is paid to speaker choice; and very few people are aware of how carpet, drapes, and excessive furniture can affect the tonal output of a system. But count me in as one who feels that amplification is somewhat important, and that amps do have a signature sound just as speakers do.

 

[Chu Gai]

and you can count me in as going from 100 wpc to 60 wpc doesn't constitute an upgrade. it's like pam anderson going to an a cup.

 

[Brian L]

Well, I would not mind watching her try to fit into a bra that small

But thats just me.

Wait. We were talking about amps and stuff right?

BGL

 

[Steve_AS]

'Rolled off high frequencies' should certainly show up in measurements of the receivers. I have before me the Sound & Vision review of the H-K AVR 8000 from the Oct 2002 issue. The bench test shows a frequency response of +.01, -0 dB from 20Hz-20kHz for performance with a Dolby Digital source ('as flat as I've ever measured' according to the tester), and almost the same (+0, -0.1 dB) for multichannel analog input across 20Hz -20kHz. (the latter also shows -3dB at

 

[Steve_AS]

Exactly. A slighly louder presentation is often perceived as *qualitatively* different...not as louder.

 

[Steve_AS]

Then again, that's just as true for a 'sighted' comparison as it is for a blinded one.

A proper ABX could at least tell you if they are likely to sound *different* or not, or whether your sighted perception of difference was trustworthy. If they end up sounding the same, preference would then be a function of looks, features, price...and other stuff that really mattered.

 

[VinhT]

Just in case this may have happened, when you were evaluating the Sony amplification, was the "loudness" function enabled? Sometimes people mistaken over-emphasis as increased detail, and a "loudness" feature will boost the upper and lower ends of the spectrum (most likely around 100Hz and 10KHz, which would seem to coincide with the lack of "detail" when switching to the Rotel).

 

[TerryHub]

VinhT:

My Sony ES receiver has no "loudness" button as I know the older DE series did have. Even if it did, I would never use it. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, the Rotel amp should have gotten the exact signal that the Sony's internal amp was getting.

So its a growing opinion that I heard a difference between these two amps because you think that I mistakenly heard a difference as what most people speak of the difference in DD and DTS tracks? DO you think that is what Sony is doing this to get the masses out here to think their stuff sounds better (or worse as it may be)?

 

[Angelo.M]

Amen.

 

[JimmyK]

Not necessarily so. I think it's just that without stricter controls over all variables, it's impossible to determine whether the difference you heard was due to actual performance differences or something else. In the end, it doesn't really matter. What matters is what you prefer, for whatever reason.

Now, it is possible that the Rotel amp wasn't performing within factory specs and that a new Rotel amp might sound different. It certainly would be reasonable to try a new Rotel amp and see if your preference changes.

I hope that you haven't interpreted these posts as doubts as to whether or not you really heard a difference. Obviously, you did hear a difference and formed a preference. It's just that under the circumstances it's impossible to conclude what caused the difference you heard.

Bottom line, stick with what you prefer and enjoy!

JimmyK

 

[Kevin Alexander]

That might be the case w/ some, but my descriptions of what I hear from any given amp is based on my own user experience w/ gear played through the same set of speakers. I, as well, am leery of how some label the sound of a particular piece of gear because, basically, it's biased information.I have experienced a good many receivers and amps in and out of my system. Sometimes I experienced notable differences in sound, other times I it was only slight....but there were differences.

 

[Steve_AS]

Well, so much for diplomacy.