Pioneer DV-563A Review (1 Viewer)

[BeatCrazy]

duplicate post

 

[BeatCrazy]

Hi Paul,

Yes, you have somed up many of my thoughts on BM. Regarding Telarc, I used them as a example of a label that issues 5.1 titles that use the .1 channel for a height channel. See here:

http://www.telarc.com/surround/sacd.... heightchannel

So to answer your question:

HDMI will be digital and analog bass management will not be a concern. At CES it was also revealed that a $250 version player similar to the 563A will have HDMI.

HDMI is vapor-ware as far as I'm concerned. No audio-driven people are anxious for it. Personally, I don't want anything that does my Dolby Digital to do my two-channel audio.

I hope you are enjoying the player. I hope to see one at a local retailer soon.

 

[Paul.S]

Sam (et al.):

Yes, you have somed up many of my thoughts on BM.

I don't follow at all. Without getting too contentious in my post #60, I basically was trying to gently say I largely disagree with your positions on BM and what you, with support from Allen White, argue is not DSD-to-PCM downconversion despite CES information and press releases that others have referred to and a review of the DV-AX10 to the contrary.

Although your seemingly playing devil's advocate on the issues of BM and DSD-to-PCM downconversion can be beneficial from a theory standpoint (i.e., questioning whether or not a player's use of "PCM DACs with separate SACD inputs" as opposed to separate PCM and DSD DACs constitutes downconversion [I basically think "yes" until someone thoroughly explains to me otherwise] and reminding us that BM can possibly be the source of phase and other audio problems), I am (and, at the risk of seemingly speaking for anyone besides myself, a couple of the other guys who have contributed to this thread's last 30 posts or so are also) more interested in the practical issues of whether the 563A does BM or not and what D/A chipset(s) is/are in the 563A, whether it/they downconvert DSD-to-PCM or not and, if so, does it significantly impact sound quality (to the extent someone interested in an approximately $200 player should care about). [Whew! That was one sentence . . . with three parentheticals!]

Let's set aside the point of semantics I would argue you are making by mentioning "channel management" vis-a-vis bass management. As far as what we're discussing herein is concerned, that is what the lawyers call a "distinction without a difference." The bottom line--as evidenced by the very instructions at the Telarc site to which you link--is that, if you have anything other than full range speakers, you still need BM in order to take full advantage of the height channel found on some Telarc multichannel SACDs. Indeed, a couple of paragraphs above the information you link to about a "Height Channel" there are a couple of paragraphs about "LFE/Bass Management." (BTW, this is the same information that's in the liner notes of the Telarc "1812 Overture" DVD-A and probably the SACD, too.)

Paul

 

[Lewis Besze]

Again, why? If you think that BM is the nirvana for getting the best sound out of a system, we need to re-evaluate things. Are you using super-tiny-micro speakers? I guarantee you will get better sound out of a well constructed properly engineered SACD player running full-range than an inexpensive model doing bass management. There's tons of ways BM can screw up your sound. Think many audiophiles with high-end SACD rigs use BM?

Most speakers on the market won't do justice to true bass,so one needs complete BM to achive full bandwith,to reproduce what's on the source[disk].My speakers are Polk LSI-9s hardly "micro" speaker but it sounds best when it's high passed at 80hz to a competent sub.I don't see ton's of ways how BM screws up the sound perhaps you could elaborate?I'm aware of a few "bumps on the road",none which can't be dealt with if you know what you're doing. Did you say "audiophiles"? The "one size fits all" that comes from that group and part of the industry,is just not practical for a lot of people.Most of us set up our music/movie systems in our living/family room which in most cases won't permit us for the "ideal" set ups like what Telarc for instance advocates.So there are some "compromises" must be made,however a good BM can help over come on those issues with proper bass redirection and distance compensation,both which can be a challenge by not having big towers all around in equidistant locations.
So yes for many of us a good BM is a must for audio "nirvana".

 

[Brian L]

So yes for many of us a good BM is a must for audio "nirvana".

Lewis,

You pretty much articulated most of my views on BM. I will add one more thought.

The correct placement for a set of speakers to produce smooth bass response in a room is NOT the correct placement for the same speaker to achieve optimum imaging and soundstaging.

A sub/sat system allows you to have your cake and eat it too.

I would argue that a properly set-up and crossed over (ie. with correctly applied BM) sub/sat system (even for 2 channel) should out perform a system of large mains that are NOT using a separate sub.

Of course, if you have a bespoke listening room, with speaker placement calculated by an acoustical engineer, and speakers that have output down to 20 Hz, then I accept that such a system could challenge my premise. But what percentage of users will have such a system?

I think a lot of the rational behind the view that you need 5 large mains (equidistant from the listening position, BTW) for proper sound relates to the high end aversion to having anything in the signal path (BM, TA, EQ, etc) which could do harm to the sound.

I think some of those fears are unfounded. Personally, to show that I am in fact an unwashed heathen, I use an Audio Control Bijou EQ (1/6th Octave below 80 Hz, 1/3 octave from 80 to 800 Hz)) to tailor my system for my room.

That, plus my trusty ICBM are giving me the best sound I have ever experienced in my room.

That would be considered heresy to the high-enders, right?

BGL

 

[Jeff O.]

So to get back to the 563a, does anyone know anything about the BM on this player? At this price, I would be interested in purchasing it for my second system to get SACD support.

 

[Brian L]

Jeff, I was about to apologize for my part is hijacking this thread.....So, I will do my part to bring it back on track.

I have no info on BM, but I did read a report over at AVS about a possible video issue with Monsters, Inc. Here is a link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&pagenumber=5

The user reports discussing the issue are toward the end.

It would be interesting to see if any owners of the 563 have tried Monsters. As you may know, Monsters has a flagging issue (the 3:2 Alt. Flag problem documented on the Secrets site).

Some players (flag readers) have an issue with this kind of authoring. It would be unfortunate if the 563 had a problem with this title, since the vast majority of Disney titles, and many others are flagged this way.

Although I own a 45A and don't have a dog in this fight, I just recommended the 563 to a family friend. It would suck if this think has a significant bug in it.

BGL

 

[Brian L]

Quick follow-up...

The user issue I previously reported pertains to Mike's New Car, not Monsters. Not sure how that is flagged. Users at AVS report no obvious issues with Monsters.

BGL

 

[Walt N]

Analog bass management confirmed!

This is quite a surprise to me. I thought you folks were expecting too much to think that something this cheap might have it, but it does.

Just a rudimentary test, but playing through the Pioneer's analog outputs to the 5.1 external inputs on my pre-pro, I put on the "Dark Side Of The Moon" SACD and turned my subwoofer amplifier *off*. With all speakers set to "small" in the player's audio menu, the heartbeat sound at the beginning of the disc has no discernable bass through the mains, center, or surround speakers. Conversely, with all speakers set to "large" in the Pioneer's audio menu, the bass is definitely coming through the mains, center, and surrounds.

I don't know where the filters are set or what slopes are used, but it's working pretty darned well and the disc sounds amazing. Easily as good as the "Yes" DVD-A disc I played and as good as the Panasonic CP-72 I used before, but then it's impossible to make a perfect comparison without identical test material or a rapid A/B between the two units. The Panny died so I can't A/B at all with it.

Anyway, with DVD-V the picture looks as good to me as the Panasonic did on my Toshiba 57HX81 TV, but then I don't watch animated films so I can't test that.

This thing is a killer IMO and I'm quite delighted. Those of you who are more "Secrets-centric" than I about video quality may not find it perfect for your rig, but I'm stunned and can't believe what I got for $179.

(crossposted at AVS)

 

[Brian L]

Not to pee in your corn flakes, but I think you have proved that there is some bass management in the 563, but not necessarily ANALOG bass management.

And what I would want to know is what was the sub setting in the 563? Sub On or Sub Off?

I assume that your test with all large had the sub in the 563 off, which would prove that the .1 channel is redirected to the main L&R. That in itself is in fact a good test and a good thing.

I also assume that your "all speakers small" test had the sub in the 563 on? That one may or may not prove anything, since you would need to know how much bass is in the .1 and how much is in the mains.

Anyway, the basic tests you did do confirm some BM, but not all formats and channel compliments, nor how its being performed (Analog or Digital).

I would really be curious how it works with some of the Chesky DVD-A discs that have no .1 channel (normally 4.0 stuff).

BGL

 

[Walt N]

OK, tough room here...

The bass management surely works digitally, of course what I meant is that it's affecting the analog outputs used for SACD and DVD-A.

Speakers changed from "large" to "small" with the sub enabled in both cases. Didn't try anything with the sub off...not of interest to me. The point is that the bass below 80-90Hz? normally directed to the mains, center, and surrounds is being re-directed to the sub output when "small" is chosen. Works for me and the discs I own.

No Chesky discs here yet, so I can't help you on that one.

 

[Brian L]

The bass management surely works digitally, of course what I meant is that it's affecting the analog outputs used for SACD and DVD-A.

No offense intended Walt.

Those of us that fought this battle with the 45A have a very keen interest in BM discussions.

And just to pick another nit, the BM may or may not be digital. It could well be analog, but not likely at this price point.

Thats the crux of why a lot of users have their panties all wadded up. To do it digitally may, and I emphasis may, mean that DSD could be converted to PCM to do BM.

No eveidence that this will automatically hurt the sound, but a lot of users are all wrapped up in that issue as a means of deciding if a player is worth having or not.

A lot of those folks also spend more than $178 on a freakin' interconnect, so draw your own conclusions there!

I appreciate the your postings, as it answers quite a few questions.

BGL

 

[Walt N]

Thanks Brian,

I'm pretty sure the bass management is in the digital domain given the small size and price of this unit...but no matter how it works and what's converted where, a $179 player is not going to please golden eared audiophiles.

I know many folks are wrapped around the axle over these issues, I've been paying attention to the discussions here and at Audio Asylum.

What would be really interesting to me would be some blind comparisons with more exotic units. Anyone want to bring one over? (Of course a null result will only result in my front-end and ancillary equipment being insulted.)

 

[Paul.S]

Got a reply from Allen White to my e-mail inquiring about what chipset is in the 563A and the downconversion issue. He said he's in the Australian outback (so he gets props for replying to mail from little ol' me) and didn't have Web access to do some research (but then how did he respond to my e-mail?).

I replied, saying I would e-mail him again in a week about this once he's back from Oz. Will report back here again then.

At least we've made some progress on the BM issue though.

Paul

 

[Carlo_M]

Well it's true that people are pretty wound up over something that is clearly a budget piece of equipment.

That said, the true cost of "doing things properly" often does not reflect what the cost of the item is (i.e. a player costing 5X as much aren't necessarily 5X better).

In fact, the whole "progressive scan" issue is proof positive. Back in 1997 they didn't even have progressive scan as an advertised item on the "affordable" players (sub $1000).

Then when progressive scan hit, it was only on the higher end players. And then when they finally hit regular players, we find out that there is a right way and wrong way to do deinterlacing (the whole Secrets thing) and ultimately, the ones that passed the Secrets test (scored highest) were the sub $200 players from Panasonic and Denon. Meanwhile, $500-$1000+ players don't pass those tests as well as the RP-82, XP-30 and the Denon.

So clearly "doing something right" doesn't necessarily mean having to shell out the big bucks, which is why I think people are very interested in this $179 offering from Pioneer. Maybe we're hoping (I know I am) that this is the beginning of affordable Universal players that "get it right" - slim chance, I know, but at least there's a chance!

 

[MikeSRC]

Apparently, according to a press release from Philips today, the new Pioneers are using their SACD chip solution. Here's a exerpt:

"Royal Philips Electronics (NYSEHG)(AEXHI) today announced that Pioneer Corporation (NYSEIO) will use Philips' Super Audio CD (SACD) single-chip solution, the SAA7893HL chip. Pioneer will integrate Philips' SAA7893HL chip into its DVD Player (DV-563A-S) and Home Theater System (HTZ-830DV) targeted at the U.S. market, providing consumers with sound quality superior to that of a CD. SACD is a key feature for multichannel audio in DVD players, and Philips' SAA7893HL chip is the ideal semiconductor solution to seamlessly and cost-effectively add SACD capabilities to DVD devices.

Philips' SAA7893HL chip is a flexible and cost-effective single-chip hardware and software solution offering complete SACD functionality, avoiding the need for continual redesign and re-integration of SACD into various applications. The SAA7893HL chip can support many different DVD platforms because of the integrated multiple loader and host interfaces. It enables manufacturers to introduce DVD video players that can support six-channel SACD and DVD-A playback. The six-channel DAC outputs of the DVD host are routed via the chip, which provides a DAC switch function between SACD mode and DVD mode. Offering a complete solution, including Annex J+ level SW API, the SAA7893HL chip also incorporates a full SACD software stack."

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Well, according to this document (http://www.semiconductors.philips.co...7893HL_C2.html) at the Philips site, this chip looks capable of pure DSD BM, time alignment, etc. w/out any DSD->PCM conversion. The diagram at the bottom looks pretty clear to me. In fact, it looks like the built-in DSD->PCM convertor cannot even be applied to the DSD bitstream before the channel management circuit. However, it does seem to allow the option of DSD->PCM converted output after channel management is applied, presumably to allow player makers to cut corners by using PCM-only DACs.

So if people can confirm that the Pioneer 563sa (or any other player using this chip) uses DSD DACs for SACD output, then there should be zero DSD->PCM conversion involved -- unless, of course, Philips is hiding something underneath that channel management circuit (or I totally misread the diagram).

This player is sounding more and more promising. Of course, even if what I concluded is true, that still doesn't prevent the player from degrading the sound whenever the channel management circuit is used (or whatever else) as has been pointed out before...

_Man_

 

[Carlo_M]

Dude, I just got my eyes crossed reading that PDF file!

 

[Lewis Besze]

Man-Fai Wong,
I've read it the same way you did,this is a true multi task chip but as you pointed it out it can be configured for pcm conversion and without asking Pioneer enginieers or somone in the know,it would be hard to predict how it is exactly configured. Or,maybe one of the golden "ears" can take a stab at it?

 

[Mark Donohue]

I received my 563A today and just plugged it in and played a few tracks. I'm not an audiophile, and the rest of my system is not high-end. I have no idea whether the DSD/PCM conversion compromises the sound quality of SACD output (as compared to players that don't do this conversion). One thing I can say is that the difference between my old Pioneer DV333 playing redbook CD and the 563A playing SACD is large, immediately noticeable, and entirely in the 563A's favor. Would your wife/friend/Mom who doesn't care about audio notice if he or she just walked in while you were playing an SACD? No. Would he or she be able to tell the difference if you played redbook and SACD versions of the same song back to back? Absolutely. Let's grant that a $180 player isn't for audiophiles. But SACD is amazing, even on an $180 player. If only there were more content! Bottom line, is there any other way to spend $180 and improve the sound of your system this much? I doubt it.

Mark