Pioneer DV-563A Review (1 Viewer)

[Paul.S]

*Lewis Besze:

And when they finally iron out this thing in a year or two I'll be able to upgrade then.

Given hopes for competing universal players at similar price points, I would think that it will be sooner than 18-months-to-two-years that the DSD-->PCM conversion issue--if indeed it is an issue (see Sam's Audio Asylum link above)--gets resolved. I certainly wouldn't expect it to take any longer to be resolved/for "true" DSD to trickle down from high-end units than it took for the true progressive versus upconverted progressive scan issue that we had when prog scan DVD-V players first came out to get resolved [which was less than a year (?)].

Paul

 

[Brajesh Upadhyay]

I finally got around to testing for the chroma bug. Like some people have already reported, there's no trace of it on the 563A. I tested the "Toy Story" menu as shown in the Secrets' article, plus the "Monsters, Inc." DVD.

 

[Brian L]

(BGL, please chime in if you have found out any more on this.)

No real news from the 45A front.

Steve_AS had contacted Chesky, and done some additional tests, and IIRC he said that it appears that there is an issue with the Checky Ultimate DVD, but I can not confirm that.

I need to revisit a few areas, particularly the SACD of Bowie's Heathen (looks like ALL low bass is on the .1 channel, and if you have no sub, the 45A did not seem to redirect it if your rig is all large, no sub).

I am also going to try to determine which of my DVD-A's is also heavy in the LFE channel, and which are not. That would allow one to determine if the BM works in both directions (large and no sub or Small + Sub).

FWIW, Hotel California (the title track) seemed to have a fair amount fo bass in the main channels.

For additional info on that, I started a thread here, but got very little discussion http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...&highlight=LFE

BGL

 

[WesleyHester]

Everyone must understand that the DSD to PCM conversion is what really makes this player cheaper more than anything else about it. DSD to PCM is key here. Reading DSD literatue on the net and what comes with the discs, it all claims how different and better it is over PCM and here is a player that takes those "benefits" and transforms it back into what the SACD camp says is "inferior". DSD to PCM is NOT an innovation but more like a side-step.

**I still love this player and the sound of both DVD-Audio and SACDs (especially multichannel) from it. I love it more because I understand what is going on inside of it as well and accepted it for what it is.**

Another key point for any DVD-Audio, SACD or Universal player is ANALOG BASS MANAGEMENT (until the HDMI connection anyway). Higher priced players have it. If it is found that the 563A doesn't have it then it ISN'T really that great a value because instead of only paying $180 for a universal player, you'll end up spending $450+ instead (still less than a $1000 Denon or Yamaha true enough) to get it and an ICBM. It is extremely IMPORTANT to have proper bass management for DVD-Audio AND SACDs because each title can be engineered to either use the LFE Sub channel or NOT. They can be engineered to have the bass in the individual channels, LFE or both. Without proper bass management, any bass frequencies in the Front L/R, Center and Surround L/R will be lost on small speakers.

 

[Carlo_M]

I certainly wouldn't expect it to take any longer to be resolved/for "true" DSD to trickle down from high-end units than it took for the true progressive versus upconverted progressive scan issue that we had when prog scan DVD-V players first came out to get resolved [which was less than a year (?)].

As someone who got into DVD in May of 1997 (L.A. was a test market) I can tell you it took a while for progressive to become affordable! (and even longer to get it done right if you count the hometheaterhifi tests and the chroma error)

But I do get what you mean. Well, seeing as to how my cost will be a bit lower than MSRP, I really do think this can be considered a throwaway player for me. I'm sure there could possibly be another bump in the road (or two) between now and a true, affordable Uni player. I'd love to be proven wrong, but if not, then I can enjoy SACD now (albeit compromised, I won't know the difference) and upgrade later.

 

[Brian L]

Another key point for any DVD-Audio, SACD or Universal player is ANALOG BASS MANAGEMENT (until the HDMI connection anyway).

Why should this matter? All a digital connection means is that you are moving the BM and TA from one place to another (OK, I will concede that you save a few cables worth of clutter in your equipment rack).

It can still be done correctly or not regardless of whether or not it is in a pre/pro, receiver, or in a player.

Every time I read a post begging for an affordable digital connection, all I can think of is the old adage that you should be careful what you ask for, or you just might get it.

What would you rather do? Replace a moderately priced uni-player because it has substandard BM and TA, or a considerably more expensive pre/pro or receiver for the same reason? My wallet knows the answer to that.

BGL

 

[Carlo_M]

Another thing about the DSD to hires PCM conversion (and any potential loss of signal quality).

For me only:

This probably won't mean too much, simply because I'm trying to get in on this cheap. So if I were to get a true SACD player, like the Sony 222ES, I'd have to get a 5.1 switcher (and I'd just get the Rat Shack switcher, not some multi-hundred dollar one) and that would introduce its own degradation in signal quality. My receiver only has one set of 5.1 inputs and I'm not about to try and upgrade that as well.

Wow, I'm really talking myself into this purchase!

 

[Brian L]

This probably won't mean too much, simply because I'm trying to get in on this cheap. So if I were to get a true SACD player, like the Sony 222ES, I'd have to get a 5.1 switcher (and I'd just get the Rat Shack switcher, not some multi-hundred dollar one) and that would introduce its own degradation in signal quality. My receiver only has one set of 5.1 inputs and I'm not about to try and upgrade that as well.

Carlos,

Fear not. I think it is debateble whether or not you will suffer any signal degradation with a switcher.

Even John Kotches in another thread said that he has used one in his "normal guy" rig (I think that is how he described it), and did not hear anything bad.

I use a pair of MCM Electronics switch boxes (cheaper than Rat Shack, and better build quality), and I would challenge the most golden of ears to to identify if the switch is in or out of the signal path.

BGL

 

[Carlo_M]

Brian, can you point me to a link with info on the MCM switch box you are using? Or better, a place that sells them online?

Thanks!

 

[Brian L]

http://mcm.newark.com/NewarkWebComme...jsp?id=50-6195

It appears they have raised the price...a LOT!

I paid about $8 each. They are now almost double that, so RS will perhaps be cheaper.

That said, for what they are, the build quality is far better than RS, unless RS changed their design.

BGL

 

[Jeff O.]

Thinking about a switcher. How about something like these stackable RCA connectors: stackable RCA That way you could leave them both plugged in and I assume it would work as long as both players aren't on at once. Any thoughts on whether this would work or not?

 

[Carlo_M]

Hmmm, that does look intriguing Jeff. Anybody familiar with the tech side of things wanna chime in and say if this is a good idea?

Bottom line though is that I'll prolly try it if I do go separate components - it's only like a $6 risk for 3 pairs...

 

[Brian L]

I have never tried doing that, but for what its worth, you would want to be VERY careful not to have both players powered on at the same time.

While it is normally no problem to use Y Connectors for OUTPUTs, it is generally not advisable with INPUTs.

I would still go with the cheapest switch boxes you can find. I think the Rat Shack boxes are less than $10 each. For $20 you have a good system, with no fear of blowing anything up.

BGL

 

[BeatCrazy]

Wesley,

Whew, we have a lot of stuff to disagree on here:

It is extremely IMPORTANT to have proper bass management for DVD-Audio AND SACDs because each title can be engineered to either use the LFE Sub channel or NOT. They can be engineered to have the bass in the individual channels, LFE or both. Without proper bass management, any bass frequencies in the Front L/R, Center and Surround L/R will be lost on small speakers.

SACDs with channel distribution issues like these (a la Telarc) a few and far between. Evey MCH SACD player I've ever used or owned has provisions to get around a disc that uses the .1 track for other things besides bass. Why is the DV563A different?

Before you think that I'm slagging you or your player, please realize I'm not. I'm very interested in getting the DV563A. I bought my first SACD player in late 2000 and have been enjoying 3 different models since.

 

[Walt N]

It seems like that's been tried here, but it didn't work because it reduced the input signal too much. You might try a seach and see exactly what they had to say, but I do recall that using switchboxes was the only practical option for using two decks.

 

[Carlo_M]

There's tons of ways BM can screw up your sound

I wondered about this (though I don't have an answer), just because it's an extra layer of processing. And I'm soon going to move my C6s to the rear speakers (full towers) so I think BM won't be much of an issue for me.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Carlo,

I wondered about this (though I don't have an answer), just because it's an extra layer of processing.

BM can induce phase irregularities between the sub and main speakers, cause improper time delay, have inconsistant frequency rolloff characteristics that do not compliment the sub/sat combination, not to mention grossly improper frequency response due to incorrect sub volume or placement.

One could probably write a chapter on the subject given enough time....

 

[Lewis Besze]

I think you're referring to 2001's DV-AX10. That $5,500 player did some kind of DSD-to-PCM conversion?

Yes!
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/OCT01/E...uip2OCT01.html

 

[WesleyHester]

The Yamaha DVD-S2300 and Denon DVD-2900 are more expensive for many reason, one of which is that they both have SEPERATE circuits for DVD-Audio and SACD and treat both differently based on everything I've read about them. DSD is different from PCM period. Converting DSD to PCM is not treating DSD and PCM seperately. Instead, the output path is combined into ONE. In theory that would result in LESS specialized components to use which in theory should result in lower cost if my logic is correct.

OF COURSE when anyone is refering to the importance of Analog Bass Management, it's not for those with all true full-range speakers with a player speaker setting to Large. If anyone doesn't have all full-range speakers then Analog Bass Management and especially the lack of it, is a VERY BIG ISSUE. Also, everyone should be clear on what FULL-RANGE SPEAKERS are. Even, if you do not have "super-tiny-micro speakers" and think you have "pretty big speakers" you'll still need analog bass management because few bookshelf and small tower speakers come close to being true full-range speakers that can handle deep bass like a true stand alone subwoofer. If you or anyone has all true full-range speakers then yes you don't have to be concerned with analog bass management and everything I have posted here is obviously not for you.

Discs that use the LFE channel are found more on DVD-Audio not SACD. I admit to limited knowledge of SACD though.

Sam Scamardo, all of the problems you say BM could be true. Now think about everyone who would have to use it because they lack true full range speakers to produce bass accurately! I'm having to use an Outlaw ICBM which I feel doesn't have any of the problems you describe. Forunately for me, I can still set the 563A to Large in the speaker setup.

HDMI will be digital and analog bass management will not be a concern. At CES it was also revealed that a $250 version player similar to the 563A will have HDMI.

Having said all of the above, I LOVE this player. Because I'm getting great SACD multichannel and DVD-Audio sound at a cheap price is one of MAIN reasons.

 

[Paul.S]

Lewis:

Thanks for the link to the DV-AX10 review, in which reviewer John Sunier says that the poor SACD sound quality of the DV-AX10 compared to the Sony players he had on hand is . . .

SACDs with channel distribution issues like these (a la Telarc) a few and far between.

Sam, could you please explain your parenthetical reference to Telarc's SACDs? On the one hand, in your post #s 54 and 57, you seem to intimate that bass management is at best unnecessary and at worst a possible source of sound quality degradation that audiophiles wouldn't/shouldn't/don't bother with (never mind that audiophiles probably have full range speakers all around). But Telarc is an audiophile label if there ever was one. (You hopefully know the drill: label heads Jack Renner and Bob Woods are former musicians; their label has been doing DSD recordings for a few years now; had been doing 20-bit recordings way before they were fashionable for years before that; first digital recording of a symphony orchestra in 1978.) Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning. In your experience, is there something endemic/specific to Telarc’s SACDs that makes bass management necessary? And if so, especially considering that label’s pedigree, doesn’t that kind of "fly in the face" of some of what you have said about BM?

Paul