Penn and Teller: Bulls***! Season Three (1 Viewer)

[RobertR]

They stick it to the Boy Scouts?

 

[Mary M S]

It astounds me every time I see that common sense has died.
Penn & Teller are full of their favorite word.

I have two sons….I nervously send them off with a bunch of men who I have barely met, who are the usual collection of left / right / middle of the road peppered with just plain strange fanatics, as is any good cross section of humanity. I send them off with these practically total strangers for over night weekends, hoping that something good comes of this.
These men are known predominantly heterosexual and sexually mature.

Add a complication: I have two daughters ….I nervously send them off with a bunch of men …….for overnight weekends….hoping that something good comes of this.

Does being PC mean we check brain at door?

- -
A ruin is not just something that happened long ago to someone else; its history is that of us all, the transience of power, of ideas, of all human endeavors.
George Schaller

 

[Rich Malloy]

This might end up being my favorite episode of the season. Was I aware of the Boy Scouts' exclusivity and bigotry, at least over the last decade or so? Yes. Was I aware that they'd been hijacked by one of the more right-wing religious sects in the early 90s? No.

Simple solution here. No public funding or use of public facilities. Be a private club in all respects, not just when it suits your purposes. Like the Klan. Or the Nation of Islam.

I love it when problems aren't of the intractible variety!

 

[John_Lee]

Ok, my initial reaction was 'that's just Penn being Penn.' No need to raise a ruckus. Then someone goes and puts credence in his performance.

 

[Mary M S]

"It is not reality although you can express reality there if you wish.
You are also free to write nonsense, or lies, or to tear the pages."
--Richard Bach, from Illusions


ummmmm, I'm pretty sure I saw most of this segment.
Was I aware that they'd been hijacked by one of the more right-wing religious sects in the early 90s?
to coin a phrase "What the F*@!"

Badin Powell the English founder based it with a connection to religion. It was not taken over, its roots lie entwined.

At least half Penn's "FACT" were wrong. And I can think of hundred bizarre things public funds go towards with less of a goal than to teach boys how to live honorably with respect for nature.

"Others among us are luckier: people protected these origins, sometimes by refusing to lose a native language or to sell an old house or a piece of land . . . sometimes by saving letters, diaries, old photographs . . . and sometimes by passing down, from one generation to the next, stories, history, and a special sensibility -- approaching instinct."
--John Nichols, from If Mountains Die

Ok, my initial reaction was 'that's just Penn being Penn. "Life . . . is an onion. One peels it while crying."
--Opus

 

[Rich Malloy]

Mary, I apologize if you thought I was contradicting you, but I didn't take the time to read your post before putting mine up. Any general snarkiness was not directed at you, and I apologize if the appearance of my post after yours implied such. It was not my intent!

Lord Badin-Powell was a military leader and strategist - not a member of the clergy. But I'd concede that the tenets of Mormonism are probably not terribly far afield from those of the Anglican church. I suspect that anyone not sharing the faith of the British peerage, as well as gays and other groups deemed undesirable by Lord Badin-Powell's caste, were likewise unwelcome.

And I also am not criticizing the Mormon Church for promoting its ideals by leveraging its sponsorship of a considerable percentage of Boy Scout troops. I do disagree with those ideals, and as a former Scout I'm not proud of what's become of the organization since the early 90s when the LDS began to exercise its influence, and the pogroms against gays and atheists began. That's not the organization I was a member of, and I certainly don't wish to have any ties to one with such exclusionary practices.

Rather, I prefer to honor the principle of separation of church and state, and generally the Jeffersonian civic ideals and specific first amendment protections against the usurpation of civil society by fundamentalist sects. This being my only point: Do as you wish, believe as you will, but don't expect to partake of the civil largesse when you practice your bigotry.

 

[Francois Caron]

Has anyone notice that those scout troop gatherings as seen on BS look a lot like those Hitler Youth gatherings in old Nazi propaganda films?

Just a disturbing observation from the deep recesses of my mind.

 

[Jack Briggs]

People, try to veer your comments toward what Penn & Teller are conveying in the show. Do not go into personal observations of religious and/or political groups on your own. Only discuss what the Bullshit! episode conveyed.

 

[Mary M S]

Rich you can contradict me all you want. The apology was unnecessary (but very nice of you) I did not feel snarked …It was my opposition to your espousal of certain general broad statements adrift in current media about Boyscouting which set me off. If you take the hotbutton words prejudice and discrimination out of the equation….and view only realities certain problems should become glaringly obvious.
and …..I have personal passions, it rises, I can not always control this. (although I'm sure the mods will be willing to help me reign myself in as required!)

The military did not promote woodlore, Indiancraft, and conservatorship. BP’s program was not just an adjunct intended to apprentice boys into the military, although he certainly felt it a good choice of profession. But a compilation borrowing from frameworks he personally felt beneficial. Military, multi denominational churches and state and goverment institutions have from the BS's inception heavily supported scouting. The tenets BP espoused were complimentary to these older institutions generating common goals.

Although spin is used on history books it is my understanding that BP included allowance for boys who had no religious affiliation and I believe this has mainly caused extreme controversy only when Scouts sued for removal of all sentences throughout manuals and oaths striking references to “a higher power”. With the rare fanatic exception of a troop with Napolianic complex parents who has taken it upon themselves to designate “belief itself” is necessary for enrollment.

The 5% drop in enrollment is a reflection of dwindling number of parents torn between juggling schedules with increasing pressures to prioritize sports and other extracurricular activities unwilling or unable to invest the hours boyscouting requires. In this large city although Penn’s focused on 3 municipal & federal locations Scouts were meeting at, if priorly involved in Scouting as you yourself would be aware, the reality is 99.9 percent of scouts meet in donated Church basement space, with a requirement that they ‘give back’ by performing some service for the church on a monthly basis.

Again, common sense is required in implementing safety and has to be adaptive when factoring specialized infrastructures.

If a small club started up with leadership comprised of heterosexual males averaged in age between 20 to 40yrs. and I sent daughters 12,14,17 yr. of age out on overnight and weeklong campouts with said men, I would be considered insane.

That demographic camping out in woods together is rife with opportunity for distraction, and temptation, and just an all-round general forgetting of what they were there for in the first place.
Gay Scouts need female leaders….if they are going to be involved in this organization, not for prejudicial reasons but for the most basic of practical considerations.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Your prose is a bit slippery, Mary, and I confess I'm not entirely clear as to your meaning. Forgive me for treading so delicately, but I would not wish to presume falsely. And please don't feel compelled to respond if you're not comfortable doing so, but you seem to want to engage on this question. I wouldn't want you to think that I'd shrink from a friendly discussion.

But if I understand you correctly, we would appear to disagree on a fundamental basis on certain issues, but perhaps we can agree on the only point I really wish to make: again, that a private group may do as they wish, believe as they will, but shouldn't expect to partake of the civil largesse when they practice bigotry.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I suspect your re-edited post and mine both speak to a certain reticence to discuss this issue on this forum. Indeed, to stay within the bounds that Jack requests we observe. And even though we seem to be in disagreement about an issue explicitly raised and directly addressed during this episode, we should perhaps acknowledge that certain subject matter is simply outside the scope of acceptable discourse on a forum devoted to home theater.

 

[Mary M S]

I have no prose…I have no grammar…and mine are edited for spelling which you might notice does not catch all - so no wonder I’m a hard read.
Penn is a shock jock…so I should not really care.
I find them funny, and expert at the age old magicians trick (which they love) of getting the mind to follow the distracting hand while the other shuffles the deck.

I love broad generalizations. I use them myself especially when trying to convey a sense of what I’m getting at:

Penn & Teller act on the assumption that if any body or any thing is excluded, or something is included (the word god in the oath) which offends one body, athough its inclusion can be ignored; not a cent of public funding should be forthcoming. This is fine…to a degree., but in America we love to push these general protective concepts and laws to extremes loosing track of operational parameters.

If every organization/ institution/ agency / private or public could incorporate allowances for anything and everything Penn & Teller would be right on the money.

(here it comes …really really broad) But it is strategically and logically impossible for any entity to be all things to all people with no bounded criteria, if this were not so…. I would be sitting on the space shuttle right now. After all a percent of my money and public funds are involved therefore I should be entitled.
Since NASA can’t give me a ride they should just shut it all down.
You cannot get rid of everything because it cannot encompass everything.

On misrepresentations P&T advocate cutting public (Vs private) support.
Penn labels the issue of gays in Boyscouting as discrimination without any acknowledgement of logistical safety issues which do exist. He misrepresents that religious affiliation is required to participate in scouting, it is not. He films to make it appear Boyscouts are hanging out and doing their thing almost exclusively on local and federal governmental square footage, they do not.

 

[Steve Schaffer]

I thoroughly enjoy P&T Bullshit! but have had occasion to strongly disagree with them. They dismissed AA as a tool of organized religion due to it's recommendation of reliance upon a higher power.

I know for a fact that this is not the case. Here again we have a group which often meets in church basements (for which they pay monthly rent)--meaningless because that just happens to be where facilities are most readily available for such groups, which also include weight watchers and any number of others.

If one looks at the twelve steps as published by AA, NA, and all the other "As" one sees the use of the word higher power and God. God in this context is just a shorter way of saying "higher power" and that power is never specifically defined. Each member is free to define the higher power as whatever they choose to regard as being more powerful than themselves, the whole point being to acknowledge their helplessness. Helplessness defined here as inablity to stop engaging in self destructive behavior without outside assistance. The higher power can often be just the group itself, a tree in your back yard, your cocker spaniel, whatever. Thousands of Atheists and Agnostics have achieved sobriety thru AA without becoming involved in any kind of religion whatsoever. I'd never have gotten past the first week if anyone tried to sell me on religion, and I'm going on 26 years now.

For P&T to portray AA or any other 12 step group as religious could not be further from the truth.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I missed P&T on AA, but I did catch the "South Park" episode. Which, of course, has since been pulled from the air. Though not for offending AA. I believe it was the Catholic League that took offense to that episode.

 

[Paul McElligott]

I could certainly get behind tonight's episode, even though I'm not sure what it would cost me.

 

[mattCR]

I 100% agree with tonight's episode. I have not purchased the accompanyment of an escort, but I find the fact that such practice is illegal to be pretty counterproductive for public health.

As a legal practice, I think you could have a lot more power to regulate it's safety, tax it, etc. All issues which they addressed.

I think Nevada is a pretty good example of how it can be done well, along with Netherlands, etc. But they are also right in saying that legal or not, the practice is unlikely to "stop"

 

[Paul McElligott]

Almost any time you ban something that people are going to do anyway, you end up just surrendering control of it rather than getting rid of it.

Of course, legalizing it probably wouldn't get rid of illegal prostitution, since not everyone can pay what the legal brothels charge. There will almost always be a market for $20 BJ.

 

[RobertR]

I completely agree with the premise of the episode.

 

[Francois Caron]

The legal form of this practice is unlikely to be harmful to anyone and may be of great benefit for many, which is definitely not the case for "legal" substances such as tobacco and alcohol.

- Too many smokes, you'll die of lung cancer or heart failure.

- Too much booze, you'll die of alcohol poisoning.

- Too much sex, you'll... be dead tired, but that's it!

 

[Paul McElligott]

"The Death Penalty"

I'm sure we're going to have to be careful discussing last night's episode without getting the thread locked.

I tend to agree with what they were saying but agree or disagree way I thought they took the subject more seriously than some others and did a good job putting their position across.