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Oscar season begins (1 Viewer)

Chris Atkins

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Even though I'm not a Woody Allen fan, I think a good case could be made for Annie Hall winning so I'm not that bothered by it beating Star Wars. But there's no doubt in my mind that FOTR is a better and more important film than A Beautiful Mind and should have won that year.
I think they both should have won...since both of them broke through in their respective genres and pointed filmmakers toward new techniques and new storytelling possibilities.
 

Lew Crippen

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How else do you explain A Beautiful Mind winning over FOTR or Shakespeare in Love winning over Saving Private Ryan...
The big-budget, war/action film vote was spilt that year with Malik’s The Thin Red Line do doubt getting many votes that might otherwise have gone to [Ryan’. In my opinion, The Thin Red Line is a better film that Saving Private Ryan and was the best picture that year.

For me Moulin Rouge was the best picture the year the A Beautiful Mind won. For me the only nominee that it was better than that year was In the Bedroom. But I have a hard time thinking that the first third of a movie should win the big enchilada.

For a thread about next years Oscars, it is a bit curious to read complaints about injustices of the past. As an umpire said to a player about his disputation of a close call, ‘when you read about it in the papers tomorrow, you will still be out’.
 

Chris Atkins

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it is a bit curious to read complaints about injustices of the past.
I am just curious as to how TITANIC and GLADIATOR can win best picture when STAR WARS and FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING don't.

I think you can make the claim that the latter movies have had a bigger impact on cinema, yet the former actually won best picture.
 

Holadem

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Comparing movies from different years isn't very valid in this context. Winners aren't competing with past or future winners.

That Gladiator won is only a testament how dreadful 2000 was (especially in contrast to the excellent 1999).

--
Holadem
 

Lew Crippen

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I think you can make the claim that the latter movies have had a bigger impact on cinema, yet the former actually won best picture.
Oscars are not given out on “big impact on cinema’. If they were, films like Citizen Kane and 2001 and Dr. Strangelove would be on the list. They are not.

For one thing it takes an historical perspective to be able to assess what film will have an impact on cinema. Who knew in 1977 the impact of Star Wars? I’m not trying to irritate fans of Star Wars and I acknowledge its importance in film, but looked at solely as a film it has a lot of defects, including incredibly bad acting on the part of Hamll and Fischer and some dialogue that would have sounded trite in a Roy Rodgers western of the 40s or 50s. Things like this kind of get in the way of some members voting patterns.
 

Chuck Mayer

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Take a look at the release reviews for Titanic, and when legit critics are comparing it to GWTW, I think it made it's own case. Pre-hype and buzz (little of which was generated by an Oscar campaign or the studio, I might add), Titanic was EXTREMELY well-received. Combine that with historical drama and public adulation, and it had the Oscar locked up, deservedly so.

It's not comparable to FOTR, SW, OR Gladiator.

Take care,
Chuck
 

Chris Atkins

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I’m not trying to irritate fans of Star Wars and I acknowledge its importance in film, but looked at solely as a film it has a lot of defects, including incredibly bad acting on the part of Hamll and Fischer and some dialogue that would have sounded trite in a Roy Rodgers western of the 40s or 50s.
No arguments from me...these things have been a part of all five Star Wars films. :)
 

David_SG

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Call me a snob if you must, but when I hear people listing LOTR among the all-time great films, I tend to think these people need to see more movies.
I would never call you a snob! ;) But you should open up to the possibility that there might be people out there who are quite knowledgeable about film that think LOTR is indeed worthy of being mentioned in the same breathe as the great epics of the past such as Seven Samurai. But that is a bit off topic. Even if you didn't think FOTR was in that category, does a film need to be to be considered "Oscar worthy"?
 

Chris Atkins

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Chuck:

I can't argue against the massive cultural event that TITANIC was in 1997-1998. Heck...I took my fiancee to see it three times! :)

I guess I'm taking a longer and more long-term look at cinematic history and the impact certain films have on cinema.

Lew's right: Oscars aren't necessarily handed out for a film's impact on cinematic history, but they sure aren't always handled out for the merits of the film itself, too.
 

Chuck Mayer

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Chris,
I am skipping the major cultural event Titanic was in 1998 :D I just want folks to remember the MOVIE that came out in 1997.

Check out mrqe.com reviews...before the cultural event began. It was one of the most well-reviewed films of all time.

Thanks to radio stations, contests, and every magazine trying to sell a few extra issues, overload came quick, but the movie didn't change.

I firmly believe it was the right winner...and I *love* L.A. Confidential ;)

Take care,
Chuck
 

Chad R

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"Shakespeare in Love" is also a subtle satire on the film industry itself, so it held a special place in the voters minds. Not to mention "Saving Private Ryan" went to mush in its fourth act (not a Syd Field admirer). William Goldman had a wonderful article at the time of the oscars detailing what went wrong with the last chunk of that movie.

Also, I think many of the reasons given as to why ROTK should win best picture is precisely why it won't. It's a tremendous achievement, it will hold a dearer place in film history, et al are usually said about past Oscar losers such as 'Citizen Kane,' 'Star Wars,' etc.
 

FredK

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When they make self-aggrandizing statements like that, of course it's refreshing to see them with egg on their faces.
You must get tons of enjoyment out of Joel Silver then!

All in all, every movie except Finding Nemo has fallen short of the VFX hype surrounding them. As for the award, I think it goes to ROTK (Reloaded,Hulk,etc. all will be hurt by the fact they're hugely successful "failures" just like AOTC had no chance last year).

Otherwise, I feel LOTR had it's best chance with FOTR. The FOTR->TTT numbers may contiue with ROTK and it will get a BP nom but no chance at an award. This year is a pretty good class, and going for the "reward 3 years vote" isn't going to apply. The cinematic breakthrough that was FOTR can't be repeated with ROTK. Already too familiar.

I'd love to see ROTK win, but I'd bet it's less successful than TTT.
 

Walter Kittel

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Re: William Goldman and Saving Private Ryan

Googled this

I don't know how accurate this is, since it is a repost in a news group and it seems incomplete, but if you are a fan of Saving Private Ryan you might want to avoid clicking on the link. :)

- Walter.
 

David_SG

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Also, I think many of the reasons given as to why ROTK should win best picture is precisely why it won't. It's a tremendous achievement, it will hold a dearer place in film history, et al are usually said about past Oscar losers such as 'Citizen Kane,' 'Star Wars,' etc.
Great point, but you can easily spin that in ROTK's favor. The Academy is notorious for not awarding the groudreaking achievement, so those who argue that ROTK will suffer because it is no longer fresh are forgetting the simple fact that the Academy is often a few steps behind the game. Look no further than Moulin Rouge/Chicago. So from that standpoint, one could argue that ROTK has a better chance than Fellowship simply because it is not a "cinematic breakthrough".

ROTK will be much more of a safer choice in voters minds now - perhaps even the safest choice out of all the eventual nominees - as it is a known commodity with Academy pedigree. Handicapping ROTK's chances based on Towers' relative weak performance with the Academy is questionable. Towers never had a shot as the middle chapter, and it simply wasn't good enough. But what Towers did accomplish was making it quite clear that the completed trilogy would go down in history as a cinematic masterpiece. Towers, both as a movie and as an Oscar campaign, was a set-up for ROTK.
 

Craig S

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I remember reading that Goldman article when it was originally printed in "Premiere" magazine. Ouch.

And now, a couple of desperate attempts to bring the discussion back around to the upcoming Oscar race... :)

There's an interesting development in the Matrix/Oscar saga. I can't find a link, but I read an article a couple of days ago that talked about Warner negotiating with the Academy on how to handle the two Matrix films. It looks like they are going to submit only Revolutions for award consideration to avoid the two sequels competing against each other. So if Revolutions manages to overcome the disappointment of Reloaded, the Matrix is right back in the game.

And here's a potential scenario to chew on... This month's issue of "Premiere" has an article on Tom Cruise & The Last Samurai, including speculation that this might be his year for the golden boy. It can be argued that, like Julia Roberts a couple of years ago, the Academy will decide he's due. So we could see Tom Cruise walking onto the stage next February to receive his Oscar from (by long-standing tradition) last year's Best Actress winner - Nicole Kidman.

Now THAT'S what I call "Must-See TV"!! ;)
 

FredK

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And here's a potential scenario to chew on... This month's issue of "Premiere" has an article on Tom Cruise & The Last Samurai, including speculation that this might be his year for the golden boy. It can be argued that, like Julia Roberts a couple of years ago, the Academy will decide he's due. So we could see Tom Cruise walking onto the stage next February to receive his Oscar from (by long-standing tradition) last year's Best Actress winner - Nicole Kidman.
I didn't realize that was the scenario, guess it's gonna happen for sure now. I'm assumming the movie is a good as we're hearing... gotta love a samurai movie in the thick of things.

Submitting Revolutions is a good move, why split up your own vote?

Put me on the side that LOTR had it's chance with FOTR. This year's class is loaded, it's gonna take more than a voter's 2 year delay to get with the times for ROTK to win. I'd love it if it did, but I think it'll be treated just like TTT... expected noms/no impetus to give it a win.
 

Matthew_Millheiser

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the Academy is often a few steps behind the game. Look no further than Moulin Rouge/Chicago.
*sigh*

Chicago did not win Best Picture because Moulin Rouge got shut out! It won because it was a damn good movie on its own, period.

It's like saying American Beauty only won Best Picture in '99 because Saving Private Ryan should have won in '98, and both were Dreamworks pictures.
 

Lew Crippen

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the Academy is often a few steps behind the game. Look no further than Moulin Rouge/Chicago.
I took that comment to mean that Chicago had the benefit of an earlier, big, flashy, non-stop musical, where the numbers are done in a very different fashion (lots of cutting and coverage from different cameras and angles) than was the case for the ‘standard’ musicals such as Singin’ in the Rain.

That Chicago benefited from what had been done before does not lessen it as a film. But it seems to me that the voters had a bit of time to assimilate this style before voting again.
 

David_SG

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Chicago did not win Best Picture because Moulin Rouge got shut out! It won because it was a damn good movie on its own, period.
*sigh*

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that Chicago won because MR got shut out (and for the record I would argue that the Academy does not operate in a vacuum and does indeed sometimes engage in the practice of awarding those to whom they feel are due, but that is irrelevant to the Chicago/MR example since they are from different studios/directors, etc). I'm simply using it as an example of how, given two films in the same genre and era (although admittedly very different films), the Academy awarded Chicago, the safer film, and did not award MR, the fresher, more artistic of the two.

While far from a perfect example, it does show that a film that perhaps wasn't the freshest new film in the industry, let alone its genre, still managed to pull home the big prize. And if you want to discard the comparison altogether by arguing that Chicago was simply the better film, then I'll pose this question: Isn't it possible that ROTK, fresh or not, will be considered a superior film to both Fellowship and Towers and more importantly to the other major contenders this year?

Basically, I'm just arguing that the "not fresh" argument is completely without merit. How fresh was Godfather 2? What is relevant is whether or not the Academy is sick of the franchise, and I just don't see any evidence of that being the case (Tower's recent Academy performance included).

edit: and what Lew said!
 

Chad R

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But, the evidence of them not awarding material that is no longer fresh is the recent rule that sequel scores are ineligilbe as they are a reworking of older material.

Also, remember that all of the "industry buzz" around ROTK winning Best Picture to award the trilogy is not from Academy voters, a good majority of whom are no longer in the industry, and certainly aren't talking to the press about their preferences six months before they cast a vote. This buzz is generated by studio marketing people who know that Oscar gold translates to more dollars. The Weinstein's built a studio around this precept.

Anyone know which Miramax film the Brothers Weinstein have decided will be their Oscar Gold movie this year? Because if there's one thing the last ten years has taught us is that they are very good at deciding what films will end up in the race.
 

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