Official XBox 360 HD-DVD add-on Review Thread (1 Viewer)

[Harpozep]

" Disaster victims" ? That could describe the release of some of these consoles!

You're right of course. Supply, demand, ..suckers........
Anyway, today is the day of the launch. .
Time to view ebay and see what's going on. As I say to my wife, viewing stuff like this is "Fun for free". We'll be paying only when the consols are back at retail prices. We have plenty to do without a PS3.

 

[Dave Scarpa]

I had an older mits 65" projection but it really does not do HD-DVD justice.
I went to my Smaller 32" Sammy and I tried both Component and VGA, the image thru the VGA seems a bit more washed out, the colors are not as accurate as they are thru component. Also on this set which is 1360x768, the image is better if I set the Xbox to 1920x1980i, rather than 1280x720 and let the set upscale.

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

I just wanted to add my observations about the box over the last few days. I have a number of 720p displays at home from my main BenQ 8700+ (doing 720p) to a Toshiba 44" DLP (720) to a Dell 50" HD plasma (1366x768) ... (and two computer monitors ... the Gateway 21" and the HP 21" both doing 1680x1050 but being fully compatible with HDCP material).

The issue of late that had been bugging me came to a head on Mission Impossible 3. I have it in both HD and BD formats and the Toshiba A1 and the Samsung player to play them on.

Moire patterns ... outputting at 1080i and 720p from both these machines, the sequences in the Vatican exhibit lots of moire patterns ... from the staircases to the detailed brick walls. The first time it shows up is the pullaway shot of the broken down van on the road. The wall on the left of the screen exhibits plenty of moire patterns. (like the moire in the seats in the racing car clips)

The second time you see it is when the ethan character changes to the priest costume right after coming off the wall. He walks in front of a wall and there are once again huge moire artifacts.

The people coming down the stairs in the party sequence also shows moire patterns.

I had thought that these patterns were simply an artifact created and unavoidable when converting 1080p material down to 720p and that may still be the case. I sent the same 1080i signals into the gateway computer monitor which does 1.764 million pixels ... or 85% of the full 1080p image to see if the moire pattern would be eliminated or reduced. It was reduced but I could still see some of it.

Now it gets stranger ... on the XBOX when set to 720p output, these same moire patterns were virtually gone from the image. Gone on the Toshiba 44" DLP and gone from the Dell Plasma. (Dell Plasma runs off a Lumagen scaler outputting at 1366x768). Set the XBOX to 1080i and the moire comes back.

So the question is ... is it processing of the 1080p source material that is also going on here. Proper processing of film based material to remove the moire pattern. hmmmm

REgards

 

[DarthBeavis]

I need moire information. What are "moire" patterns?

 

[Yumbo]

The moire is on the SD at 480p as well.

 

[Cees Alons]

Moiré is caused by subsampling without averaging. If the spatial sampling distance (generally repetitive) differs from the underlying pattern in a variable manner, you get moiré.

Michael, you shouldn't see moiré on a true 1920x1080 display if the source is 1080 (i or p).


Cees

 

[Harpozep]

Darth,
Moire patterns are visually seen as color rainbowing or spirograph style B&W patterns with color s sparkeling in some areas. Picture moving two screen from your house randomly over each other, weird patterns appear as you move one screen at differing angles over the other.
In the digital word, moire can be caused by any number of things. The sampling rate and resolution of a device being the main variables.

Here are some moire:

 

[DarthBeavis]

Are you trying to hypnotize me
I have not seen those yet thank goodness. Oh, the inhumanity of it all.

Thanks for explaining and now causing me to be paranoid.

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

This stuff is actually more bothersome to the eye because the overall image is so clean ... and lacking in artefacts ... so when something like this shows up ... it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I figured that a 1080p set would fix this ... so my own reasoning would be to get 1080p to get rid of this artefact ... rather than to get more pixels that I can't see anyway from typical viewing distances.

But what is the XBox doing right that makes these moire patterns disappear at 720p?

Regards

 

[DarthBeavis]

Maybe the subliminal message generator (sends Buy Vista messages out) overrides the moire pattern

 

[Yumbo]

Buena Vista? Taco Bueno? Waaaah?

 

[Ryan-G]

I have my X-box 360 now connected to my shiny new 27" westinghouse panel, 720p display. 13something x 768 actually, with the 360 outputing at that res.

I didn't notice any moire patterning at all, watched Serenity this weekend and was very impressed.

As far as moire at 1080i but not 720p, might be something with the conversion algorhithem. The vid card is basically a PC architecture, as that is who ATI is, and it might just be a general lack of experience. I'd assume that the implementation is probably trying to do the conversion to the 1080i signal incorrectly resulting in the patterning. I'd also venture to guess it's probably something patchable. ATI and MS might have done something silly like borrowed code from the multi-sampling FSAA routines for merging, or they might have done something even more silly and run the FSAA routines on the 1080i output, since ATI's implementation of FSAA takes something like several renders of the same scene and merges them, the routine could end up with swirling colors as each render changes the color position slightly as it calculates it.

IMO, I'd guess it's probably the FSAA routines running on it, or the FSAA code reused. It'd be a speed boost to them if they could get the vid-card's built in FSAA routines to use the merge function on 1080i output, but if it's getting multi-sampled it'd get ugly. Some of ATI's FSAA implementations are virtually free in terms of performance hit, and just doing 720p/1080p is fully utilizing the three CPU's, they may very well have chosen to hit the vid-card up for a performance boost on the interlaced signals.

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

And Lo and behold, I had a chance to run 1080i out of the unit into one of the new Sony SXRD 1080p sets this weekend. And to my shock and disappointment, the moire was still there!!! 1080p processing ... and it was still there.

So the answer is ...

Maybe the Sony TV is at fault here. Properly deinterlacing 1080i is one thing (which it is supposed to be able to do without issue) but then doing proper 3:2 pulldown on the 1080i material ... is something else.

The moire issue is pretty much the same thing we see in the 480p realm with the racing car going by the seats in the film detail test on the DVD Benchmark disc.

I have to search for another answer since 1080p sets in and of themselves is not enough to rid the image of the moire patterns.

Regards

 

[Neal_C]

I picked up the add on the other day. I haven't had much time with it (just a few minutes with King Kong) but from what I have seen it looks very very good. I was also surprised to find out that my Sharp 42" LCD does 1080P over component.

 

[marcIs]

Is the add on hd dvd even capable of producing dolby digital true and hd dts.
As I understand you need hdmi 1.3 is this correct or am i uninformed

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

You get 640 kbps DD or 1.5 mbps DTS ...

regards

 

[ppltd]

Xbox 360 HD-DVD Add-On
After finally having some time to examine the HD-DVD add-on and run it through it’s paces, here are some of the observations I’ve made.

One point before I begin. Although I installed my HD-DVD add-on over a week ago, and noticed some menu glitches, these seem to be resolved with the newest update from MS Live.

I currently own a Toshiba XA1 HD-DVD player and Samsung BD player, both running HDMI through my Pioneer Elite receiver and to my Panasonic PT-100u 720p front projector. The Xbox is installed with Optical and Component cables, and set for 1080i.

First item noticed; the speed. HD-DVD access is nearly as fast as SD DVD playback. Within seconds, the HD-DVD starts up. What a pleasure, after dealing with the Samsung and Toshiba’s slow load up times.

Second item noticed; the noise. This drive is nearly silent in its operation. With the DVD inside the 360 stopped, there is only a slight fan noise from the Xbox that is noticeable. As I tend to crank up the volume when watching a film, this is of not issue.

Third item noticed: the remote. I have read a few complaints about this in some other forums. Let me put some of this to rest. While the remote is geared for DVD playback using the Xbox's internal DVD drive, it is a very functional remote for the HD-DVD payback, having most necessary function keys at your fingertips. And an added bonus, almost never seen on low end remotes, it is totally backlit, with easily readable keys.

Aesthetics: This is purely subjective, but I find the look and size of the add-on fits well next to the 360. Could MS have done more with the design? Probably, but at the cost, who’s complaining.

Set up: Set up could not be simpler. Take it out of the box, plug the power in, install the included CD (updating your Dashboard), plug in the USB cable when the install asks for it. The HD-DVD will be recognized by the 360, and should immediately download an update from live. (One additional step if you have the wireless network adapter. Before installing the drive, detach your wireless adapter from the Xbox and attach it to the back of the HD-DVD drive. There is a mounting point for it. It will automatically be recognized by the 360 when you complete the add-on install).

Within 5 minutes, you have an operating HD-DVD system.

Now for it’s Video performance:

In a word, the new Xbox add-on may be the best HD-DVD drive on the market. Having now completed four movies on the device, “Forbidden Planet”, “Land of the Dead”, Mutiny on the Bounty” and “Batman Begins”. I must admit that I am totally impressed with this little gem. I could see no discernable differences between the Toshiba XA1 HDMI output and the Xbox component.
In fact, I believe the Xbox to be a more stable platform (certainly more powerful), and it had absolutely no problems producing a superb picture, with no stutter, freezes, or loss of sync that I have experienced with my Toshiba. As a side not, as the Xbox box is component only, there are no handshaking issues that are common on the HDMI ports.

One addition note. While watching Mutiny, a hit the wrong button on the remote and it brought me out of the film and into the startup screens. When I hit play, it took me right back to where I left off in the film. I do not believe the Toshiba would have done the same.

Audio performance: This area is a little more difficult to examine. With TrueHD sources (Batman Begins), the Toshiba wins hands down. While the Xbox seems to take advantage of the lossless track, giving a much fuller presentation over the DD standard track, it still takes a second seat to the Toshiba.

For none TrueHD tracks, I could tell virtually no differences between the systems, other than a slightly lower level on the Xbox. (It should be noted that MS could release a new connector cable for the Xbox that could support discrete analog channels if they want.)

Bottom line; For all but TrueHD releases, my 360 with it’s HD-DVD add-on will become my new HD-DVD player of choice (at least until the second generation Toshiba's come ou later this year), and my considerably more expensive XA1 will be delagated to second fiddle.

 

[Yumbo]

Cool bananas!

 

[Harpozep]

Thanks for the review Thomas!

You helped me validate yesterday's buy....Yup, I went to Gamestop and got the advanced X-Box 360 AND the HD add-on. Both were in stock. They were throwing in some game ( Caall of Duty ) and a year's extra warrantee, so I bit.
I could care less about the game, I want Marvel Alliance!

I made a promise to myself that the first place that actually had the HD player in stock would get my X-Box sale as well. THe Gamestop deal was OK, not as cool as the $100.00 off at Microcenter, but I was not driving a hundred miles to Microcenter just to stand in the rain and likely not get the deal because they ran out. The Gamestop experience was fine, and their shops usually stock talkative geeks as well.

Anyway, now the hookup part come sand I'm glad we have a recent top o' the crop Sony LCOS 60" set.
I'll be wanting the HD player to output 1080P and the set takes in 1080P, so this should work.

Do I need to upgrade some firmware in the X-Box 360 to output 1080P, or will it just happen?

 

[ppltd]

When you first set up the 360 and create your on-line account, it will automatically find any upgrades and ask you you want to install them. (You do not need to spend any money on your account setup unless you plan to play on-line. Basic on-line is free). I would not hook up the HD-DVD until your xbox is completely setup with all dashboard updates installed. The updates will install seamlessly, and should not take but a min. or two. Once installed, run through the hd install.

Once the initial dashboard updates are complete, 1080p will be selectable from the xbox setup menu.