***Official TPM Audio thread (Lasderdisc comparison, Volume probs, charts, etc) (1 Viewer)

[Martice]

I've never heard the LD version but I've noticed that everything but the bass seems to be lower in overall volume. It's also funny that even when I turn up the volume it really doesn't make a difference in the overall balance of the presentation except the bass punches you in the chest more. I liken the experience to using passive mode on my pre amp when listening to music. The presentation is very clear and detailed but lacking in dynamics in everything except the bass.
I found that I enjoyed the audio presentation of Desperado(Super Bit) a whole lot more than I did TPM and I'm only comparing the two because I bought them at the same time.
I wonder if this mix could be considered a more accurate mix and maybe some of us are used to hearing over powered movie theater mixes? Music and movies do tend to be mixed differently. Don't they?
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What if it gets no better than this!?!

 

[John C]

I think dialnorm is what is making this track seem less dynamic. I adjusted the speakers to +4 and the woofer to +4 over reference before watching the disc and thought it sounded absolutely superb. I think dialnorm is the culprit behind people's complaints of less dynamic sound. Of course, I don't have the LD to compare to. Pretty much all my Dolby Digital DVDs get +4 in all channels to bring them to reference. I'll say this once again, IMHO, dialnorm for DVD sucks!!

 

[Tom J. Davis]

After reading all of the comments on the picture and sound quality of the dvd I must admit my enthusiasm was diminished just a hair. I received it in the mail this morning and quickly pulled up the pod race. If the laserdisc sounds better I don't hear it! The dvd actually sounds a little clearer and the channel separation seems better than the laserdisc. This soundtrack rocks! Granted my 12" Shiva in a sealed box doesn't put out the amount of bass that some of you have but it isn't half bad and this dvd gives it all it can handle.
The picture on my 53" HS10 also wasn't as bad as I was anticipating. It looks like I remember it in the theater. I can't wait to start tearing into the extras disc.

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

quote: I'll say this once again, IMHO, dialnorm for DVD sucks!![/quote]
I've never understood the HT Enthusiast problem with dialog norm. The funniest part about it is that for a group which is absolute and sometimes even fanatical about accurate reproduction and ref levels- Dialog Normalization should be very popular!
The whole idea of a ref level in Home theater use assumes that there was an intended ref volume in mind for the film. And, in theory, there is an intended ref volume. Every mix engineer, or every one that I've met are seeking the same relative level for dialog placement, and desire their dialog to played back at a specific level.
This level is the anchor point for the film. They mix with a basic dialog level in mind- and the rest of the film sound could be judged in ref to that number.
However- mix engineers are human. We all have slightly different volume perceptions and hearing sensitivity. As of yet, THX has found no way to properly calibrate one's hearing!
As a result- overall tracks vary slightly, louder and softer from this dialog center point. As a result- Dolby has provided an excellent feature- which allows all discs to have the same relative ref level. This allows any film to be heard with the audible clarity the mixer intended- even if the mix room volume were a little high or lower than they realized.
Dialog norm allows for the person encoding the disc to find the average dialog level of the film and then assign a number whihc adjusts the overall level of the soundtrack to make the center point at the same level from disc to disc. This is the whole point of having a ref level in the first place- to reproduce the intended audio. Dialog norm allows your system to maintain this rock solid ref level as accurate, even with production variations from film to film!
My request to some posters, and to Mr. John C, would be to understand terms that you're using in audio. The concept of a "dynamic" is not volume based. The idea a soundtrack being less "dyanamic" means less variation between the loudest and quietest sounds.
Technically speaking, since in many cases dialog norm actually REDUCES the level by a few DB- it would have almost no effect on dynamics. In the case of lowering the level by 3db you actually would then have an extra 3db of headroom (which wouldn't be used, but none the less would be there)-- and you would lose 3db in the lowest quiet range (3db which you couldn't hear in the first place). It wouldn't make an audible differnce to "dynamics". It would however make it less "loud", which is something I think it being not only over emphasised- but substituted for "dynamic".
Anyway- sorry to go off on a rant-- but I think Dialog Norm is a seriously misunderstood concept in HT. The less educated in the realm of audio see this as some sort of volume reduction, which of course must be bad! When in actuality, if Dia Norm is used properly, it would do very much to get us closer to the ref concept.
-Vince
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[Edited last by Vince Maskeeper on October 13, 2001 at 02:02 PM]

 

[DanR]

I was playing Saving Private Ryan at 285 dB, and it sounds more dynamic than when I play it at 85 dB.

Once again, Vince, thanks for saying what many of us want to say but won't because we don't want to get into it over this "mental block" some people have.
Regards,
Dan

 

[Shane Martin]

Me and Gruson 100% agree. Listening to both is quite an easy task for myself and the LD totally destroys the already impressive DVD. Add to this that I can even turn off my sub and w/o the added LFE, The Dvd still loses tells me something.
I don't see how the LD isn't balanced at all. The bass is what is skewing things IMHO.
Settings:
Reference level on my rig is -21.
TPM LD is heard at -28. Any more and its too loud for my room.
TPM DVD is heard at -15 or 6 notches above reference. The soundtrack still doesn't compare. Tried it even louder and the same thing is still true.
This is not a dial norm issue IMHO. This is purely and simply a mix issue.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Dialog norm allows for the person encoding the disc to find the average dialog level of the film and then assign a number whihc adjusts the overall level of the soundtrack to make the center point at the same level from disc to disc.

Vince, your description of what dialnorm "allows" is dead-on accurate. What you've left out is that almost no one uses it that way. The vast majority of DVDs -- including The Phantom Menace -- use a -27 dialnorm setting (which translates to a -4db reduction in overall volume) simply because that's the default on Dolby's encoder.*
Has anyone who has the Phantom Menace LD checked the dialnorm setting? I'm willing to bet it's the same as the DVD. The issue in this thread isn't a dialnorm problem.
M.
*The exception, of course, is the Sony DVD center, where dialnorm is set individually for almost every disc and for every supplement on each disc. The Sony people aren't using dialnorm according to Vince's guidelines either, but that subject has already been covered in numerous previous threads.

 

[Robert George]

Michael:
To the best of my knowledge (not sure here), Dialnorm was not used on LD encodings. I believe the 5.1 track on the Phantom Menace LD is the either -31dBFS (top of the scale), or not used at all.

 

[Adam Barratt]

Dialog Normalization was definitely used on LaserDisc encodings, but it seems unlikely this is the primary cause of the differences people are hearing. According to Widescreen Review's report the overall difference in playback level between the DVD and LaserDisc of Ep.1 is approximately 7dB.
If the DVD uses the standard -4dB value, even if the LaserDisc were set for neutral attenuation (which would surprise me, but is possible) something else would have have to account for the additional 3dB difference.
The two soundtracks have clearly been treated differently, regardless of dialog normalization (although this could certainly be a factor). The DVD and LaserDisc soundtracks were created in different facilities using different equipment separated by a not insignificant amount time. As pointed out by Graham Perks Lucas/Lucasfilm is/are well known 'tinkerers' with resepct to the Star Wars films. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas took the opportunity to tweak the soundtrack for the DVD; and may not feel that louder + more bass = better
Since it's so difficult to make any type of valid comparison between the LaserDisc and DVD any preference is going to be subjective. Rather than stating one is better than the other, they should be evaluated on their individual merits.
Not having heard either the LaserDisc or DVD yet, this is exactly what I plan to do.
Adam

 

[Martice]

I've relistened to a couple of chapters of TPM and it suddenly hit me. The soundstage is very seamless. I mean to the point that it sounds like a 2-channel music system soundstage sounds. I've always thought that my center channel disappeared during movies but honestly, the overall mix of this movie is done so well that it sounds like I'm using phantom mode probably explaining why I thought it lacked dynamics and sounded like music when used in passive mode. I cranked up the volume to see how high I could get it before I felt discomfort and what I recognized during the Pod Race scene was a smooth all around presentation with thunderous but tight bass in my chest and realistic surround effects wizzing by. The soundstage never collapsed during the push for higher volume levels which suggested to me that this mix is dead on and right!! I now realize that I've been treated to a presentation that is special and more than makes up for the lack luster story that comes with it.
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What if it gets no better than this!?!
[Edited last by Martice on October 13, 2001 at 08:57 PM]

 

[Jerome Grate]

Well, I don't have the LD but here's my take on the few scenes I sat through. First I have to say this is one of the most aggressive EX surround movie I've ever had the pleasure of listening too. If it was up to me this would be Dolby Digital 6.1 discrete. The rear center channel was so on point in reference to the pans I was floored (and that's with a psuedo ex setup). Now I have to admit I had to turn it up to about 20 dbs but the surrounds were so active I had to re-adjust them to compensate. But the 5.1 mix is absolutely seemless IMHO, and the Pod Race is my new demo mix for anyone. The bass I found to be tight and powerful. Of course that had to be adjusted as well since the volume was up there. I've got to say it, I wish I had the LD for the bass extension but I found the DVD to be and I dare say one of the best DVD's I have as far as sound is concerned along with SPR and the fixed JP DTS. The seperation all around is astounding, it has given me something to look forward to when the next releases come out.
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[Robert McClanahan]

The laserdisc version is very good.I own it and think it has one of the best audio mixes ever.The laserdisc has the original theatrical audio mix like most laserdiscs do.The dvd is mixed for hometheater like most dvds are.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Robert --
quote: To the best of my knowledge (not sure here), Dialnorm was not used on LD encodings. [/quote] Dialnorm is part of the DD spec, so it's there in the datastream even if the choice is made not to apply any special adjustment. AFAIK, the encoder default has always been -27dBFS. The 1997 Special Edition LDs of the original trilogy used that setting, as does every other DD LD I've ever checked.
As I said, I don't have the Phantom Menace LD to check. But it's so rare to see any departure from the encoder default (except for CTS DVDs) that I'd be surprised if it's anything other than -27dBFS, just like the DVD.
M.
[Edited last by Michael Reuben on October 14, 2001 at 10:41 AM]

 

[Tom J. Davis]

Just finished watching the entire movie a little bit ago. OMG! I read on avs where someone said they wasn't sure if their sub was on.

I thought mine was going to explode a couple of times. I also noticed things in the soundtrack that I hadn't heard before on the laserdisc. Excellent job by Lucasfilm's on the audio. The video is very good, but it should have been better. It's not going to give The Rock a run for it's money though.
The only thing that really disappointed me was the case! I hate those damn things. I almost broke the disc in two trying to get it out. I think I'll be scanning some artwork and ordering a nice double case for it.

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

I don't understand, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND! How is it possible that ANYONE can have a problem with this kick ass track!?!

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God bless the USA and the men and woman of our military and their families!

 

[Richard Kim]

One strange thing I noticed is the sound for the deleted scenes are actually louder than the actual movie. I compared both the pod race and the air taxi sequences. I had to increase the volume +7dB for it to match the deleted scenes, which is a much higher setting than when I watch most movies. Still I can't complain, since this soundtrack still kicks ass.

 

[Steven Simon]

John,
I don't think everyone here has a problem with the soundtrack, I just prefer the laser disc over the newer release, and I'm sure alot people around here agree...
If you don't have the laser Disc, the dvd will more than Satisfy 99.9 Percent of the dvd buying community...
The Video portion of the Ep1 dvd obviously blows away the laser Disc. It's painful for me to spin a Laser on my Anamorphic RPTV.
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Thanks,
Steven R. Simon
HTF Administrator
Theater Pics Updated 9-11-2001
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[Gruson]

Exactly Steve,
I think the DVD let me down so much because I was expecting the audio to be as aggressive as the LD. It wasn't though.
If I had not owned the LD prior to the DVD, I would have thought the DVD sound was amazing.

 

[Holadem]

Well, I don't have the LD to compare it to (as a matter of fact, I have never seen a LD in my life!), but I do NOT like this sound track:
* It does sound as open as it should. I am not sure how to describe it: Not matter how much I raise the volume, it does not jump at my face. It sounds muffled. It doesn't have that crispness that so characteristic of digital sound. This is something I am absolutely positive about.
[EDIT: DYNAMIC RANGE is the expression I was looking for. This track has very little of it.]
* The bass is LOUD, but not well defined in my ears. I have many tracks will less bass that sound better. Now, I will repeat that the bass IS STRONG. So if the LD has more bass than this, I can definitly believe that it was overcooked.
On the other hand, the THX logo is the first time ever my SVS20-39 bottomed out!!

It was very scary.
These are my impressions, feel free to disagree
--
Holadem - Paradigm Monitor 7, SVS 20-39PC
[Edited last by Holadem on October 14, 2001 at 03:01 PM]

 

[PeteD]

Hey Guys,
I've never heard the LD, and have been making do with the WS VHS version since it's release..
I normally listen to my 5.1 DD DVD's at around -20db. Some a little louder (For All Mankind) and some a little quieter (Fight Club) to compensate for the source..
I find while the EP 1 DVD is an excellent mix with appropriate bass, I find it a little quieter than most my discs. I listen to it at around -18db.
It also lacks some of the growl of say Fight Club or U-571.
I know it's not appropriate to compare different movies for sound, it's just that it doesn't leave me with goose bumps of those other discs.
Overall I'm pretty happy with it. The documentary is killer! I was just expecting a little more oomph.
As an interesting aside, I have the Canadian version and if you boot to the Menu from stop, click the Scene selection section and choose chapter 3, you get the Fox trailer twice, followed by "A long time ago..." in Spanish
Bizarre.
P.