What's new

*** Official PHANTOM OF THE OPERA Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

Larry Sutliff

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2000
Messages
2,861



What opportunity was wasted? You hate the music, you hate the stage production and now you hate the film. Why are you so surprised at this?
 

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
I'm not surprised. But as I've said, I had hopes....

I love musicals overall, and though I wasn't very pleased with the Chicago film, I WAS pleased that it broke through the barrier of cultural relevance and became a hit. Musicals were back... at least for a time.

Phantom isn't as good a stage vehicle as Chicago, but the right movie director might have made it into something new, something really exciting, a HORROR movie musical.

I don't think it was the wrong director, but I do think he didn't go far enough in turning around the material. He should have stood up to Lloyd Webber, but His Lordship was, after all, the producer.

So, my hopes were dashed. That's all -- as I said, the movie isn't terrible, but it isn't good.
 

ChuckSolo

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Messages
1,160
Methinks DeeF basically hates ALW's work. Well, that's his right. Once again, it's the music that counts in a musical. Being an avid ALW fan, I can honestly say that the music was spot on. Sheesh, you guys make it sound like Emmy Rossum was croaking her way through every song. She was on key and performed the songs like they are supposed to be sung. Man, I go to a film to be entertained, not to critique every shot the director makes or the seemingly trite errors in the props or costumes. DeeF, admit it, you went in there hating the entire stage show like Larry said. I still ask, if you hated it so, why did you go see it? Personally if I don't like something I don't participate. For example, one of my least favorite genres in films are extremely stupid comedies in the vein of "Road Trip" and even "Caddyshack" (the stupid gopher was enough to make me retch!) so I don't even try to go see comedies because I go in there with a bias. I saw those two only because I have friends who are into such drivel. I would never think of doing a "review" of a movie if I knew I was gonna hate it, like a lawyer with a conflict of interest, I would recuse myselfe.:)
 

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
Actually, it isn't true that I went in hating it. I went in with high hopes for its success. And I came out thinking it wasn't successful, but this doesn't mean I hated it, either. I don't think it achieved either purpose of artistry or bald entertainment, but this would not prevent me from expressing my opinion in a review in this forum.
 

Brian W. Ralston

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 4, 1999
Messages
605
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Real Name
Brian W. Ralston


Sorry another area to disagree. The Phantom is NOT Spanish and Antonio (while very talented) has a thick accent that just does not go away no matter what he does. For any role where it does not matter...fine. In Evita...fine...makes sense. As the Phantom...I believe it would be too distracting.

He would have been a horrible choice for the part of the Phantom.
 

Jordan_E

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Messages
2,233
Am I a bad person, hoping this movie doesn't do well so there will be a quick DVD release? Actually, I hope the release coincides with my HT construction, about 4 months from now. Or maybe the Broadway version will finally be brought out on DVD? Now THAT is something I would LOVE to have!
 

Julian Lalor

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 5, 1999
Messages
975


He's not Scottish either. Bandaras would certainly have been preferable to that lightweight pretty boy the film ended up with.
 

Ken Chan

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 11, 1999
Messages
3,302
Real Name
Ken
Now that you get more specific, you may have a point. But isn't the casting more correct? Christine is supposed to be young. In the movie, the Phantom even mentions her needing more training. Maybe Emmy doesn't quite pull off the astounding prodigy that gets an ovation. I wonder if anyone they auditioned could.

I saw an interview with ALW and he said that the movie allowed them to cast someone young, something they couldn't do on stage, because a young singer would not be developed enough to sing night after night.

That Salon review mentions Keane paintings (kinda creepy) and milky thighs; the latter reminded me of something. When they first arrive at the lair, Christine is clearly wearing stockings. She sees herself under the wedding veil (for some reason) and faints (for some reason), and the Phantom puts her in bed. When she wakes up and steps out of the bed, her thighs look bare. Continuity error, or just wishful thinking on my part?
 

Brian W. Ralston

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 4, 1999
Messages
605
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Real Name
Brian W. Ralston


Yes...but Butler's accent was not that pronounced in the film. English being his first language probably had something to do with that. (Remember though...my initial comment from post #1 in this thread was that the only thing I really did not like about the film was Butler's singing voice. I also have reservations about Butler being cast given his vocal performance in the end.) I just don't think Banderas would have been any better. His voice would have been equally distracting in a different way.

Don't get me wrong...Banderas is talented and a very nice individual. I just disagree with him being cast as the Phantom in the movie and so did Andrew Lloyd Webber apparently. (And Banderas is close to Webber and has starred in a lot of his musicals in recent past). I would love to work with him one day, given the appropriate project.
 

SteveLa

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Mar 30, 2004
Messages
76
I'm a big fan of the musical and having finally seen the film last night, I can't hide my disappointment at the mediocrity of it. I can't begin to wonder how Lloyd Webber put his stamp of approval on this. I can only assume that because he hasn't had a genuine box office hit in so long, he figured he'd roll out his most bankable property on film to try and create additional interest in its permanent and touring productions.

The only clear positive I took out of it was Emmy Rossum's performance. What a wonderful voice and screen presence. I read that she was merely 16 when the film was shot. Gerard Butler was all wrong for the Phantom. As others have mentioned, his voice seems more suited for a pop rock piece...maybe he should have been cast for Rent. I never believed him to be as dangerous as the character appears in the stage version. Worse, I never felt that this was a tortured soul, especially in the finale. For anyone that wants to see the definitive stage performance of this character, get over to London to see John Owen Jones in the title role. Absolutely magnificent!

I also felt that although Patrick Wilson is a decent actor, he didn't have the vocal chops for Raoul. And the black and white "flash ahead" transition scenes seemed a distraction.

In general, I felt many of the sets weren't nearly as lavish as in the stage version, which is puzzling considering the amount of time they had to plan this. My favorite set was the cemetery (although the sword fight felt way out of place.) By far my biggest disapointment was during Masquerade, an extended scene that seemed completely drained of color. Everyone seemed to be black and white. In the stage version, that scene is alive with color and much more vibrant, despite the fact the several of the "guests" in the scene are mannequins on the stairs. And the Phantom's costume in the film version is pathetic. In the stage version it's a real stunner...blood red with the skull mask.

Finally I felt that the film version had none of the magic of the stage version. As someone else mentioned, where was the magic lasso? There was nothing magical about it in the movie. Heck, Raoul was tied up and the Phantom tightened it by pulling on it. I would have much rather seen the fireballs emanating from the Phantom's staff in the cemetery than the boring sword fight. And the last bit of mystery...the Phantom disappearing under the cape on his chair is totally lost. He just walks through a broken mirror. Ugh!
 

Craig S

Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2000
Messages
5,884
Location
League City, Texas
Real Name
Craig Seanor

?? You do know Rossum is a trained opera singer who performed at the NY Metropolitan Opera long before being cast in Phantom? And Wilson is trained also, with a musical theater background. The "non-singers" jab really applies only to Butler.

Yeah - it was huge mistake to cast a non-singer as a character who must seduce a young woman with nothing else but his voice. But the other two principals acquitted themselves quite well, I thought. Rossum is young, and raw, but that's absolutely perfect for the character. I thought she was the best thing about this film.
 

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
Rossum sang in the children's chorus at the Met. Not exactly the same thing as having a good solo opera voice. Her voice is very thin, and it has been electronically altered and filtered to tune the pitches. She simply isn't good enough to do this role (though it doesn't require Leontyne Price, assuredly).

Again, it isn't her fault that she's a teenager. Perhaps she will sing better in future.

Another teenager, Anne Hathaway, of the Princess Diaries, sings very well -- it's surprising that she wasn't considered for this role.
 

Mary M S

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
1,544
Because this movie was a somewhat near miss for me, I am happy to see so many thoroughly approve of it. I left disappointed. Part of the fault would be the megaplex I accesed, with “Phantom” assigned to the dinky room and the SPL levels and subs quieted down in respect of close packed theaters, the mix itself on the soundtrack seemed smeary.

Seeing the visual and sound bites I had hopes the film would pull together into a lovely whole.

I have not had the experience of many that post here whom had seen several casts perform stage versions of POTO. I have seen it twice, Once in LA with Michael Crawford, and subsequently in Dallas with 2nd tier casting which put me to sleep and caused me to apologize to everyone I had dragged to the local performance. I vigorously asserted to them after the local version, that if any wished to truly experience Phantom they needed a plane to Crawford's current location.

I had hopes that the film version while not necessarily having to be the definitive perfection of this tale might surprise me with a distinctive flavor of its own. Something akin to my reaction, when after being familiar with the countless versions of Count Dracula, I was instantly intrigued by newer interpretations of the oft-told tale of the vampire. Both by the 1992 film by Coppola, “Bram Stroker’s Dracula” and while reading the Anne Rice novels. I was not familiar with Gary Oldman, and passing him on a street would never have thought to cast him in the role of Prince Vlad. What a captivating presence Oldman brought to this role.

When Michael Crawford was onstage, I felt Christine had made the wrong choice in Raual for a long-term mate. I would have stayed in the labyrinth with Michael. Gerard Butler, did not entice away from that which society expects, as did MC.

Why ? I really don’t know. Gerard is hands down, better looking than Crawford at the same age, but MC’s infinitely seductive powers of voice and mannerism’s which bounced off the back wall of live theater to dominate in intensity, were missing in this film. Yet Oldman had it, the dark seduction that can win.
Emmy Rossum was closer to the ‘ideal’ of Christine, with her almost plain and raw youthful purity.

I felt a mistake was made in filming to attempt to closely recreate the stage version of Christine's first decent to the labyrinth. What was astonishing to see so effectively produced within the confines of live performance, with fog machines, a smooth action of the boat, the rising chandeliers, looked comical and stilted to me when reproduced in a filmed version. I felt a novel and fresh approach was needed here.

Christine's walk to her fathers tomb, lacked much in editing for the length of “Wishing you were Here”

The masquerade, never bothered me, the jackhammer style of dance well suited to the melody and the scene relatively well choreographed. But, - Strike a pose!” indeed! Worse, I almost laughed out loud during one edit. In “Don Juan Triumphant”, during the passionate "Point of No Return" there is a horribly quick and abrupt cut (the very first shot the backups are seen) of the all-male “flamingo” dancers. This scene is critical and I was yanked completely out of it for a moment.

When Christine kissed Michael Crawford, you absolute believed that one Kiss could erase all thoughts of rage and revenge. The Theater in LA started sobbing during that moment. It just did not have the impact via its film edits.

I will continue to hear voices singing songs in my head in Brightman and Crawford timber.
 

Mary M S

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
1,544
and milky thighs; the latter reminded me of something. When they first arrive at the lair, Christine is clearly wearing stockings. She sees herself under the wedding veil (for some reason) and faints (for some reason), and the Phantom puts her in bed. When she wakes up and steps out of the bed, her thighs look bare. Continuity error, or just wishful thinking on my part?

Ken, I think you have a good eye. My husband has one too. He caught that and was not shy (as typical) of pointing it out to me with a “Wonder what that implies the Phantom was up too”
…he just loves being socked in the arm, by bringing to my attention all of what he considers to be a visual treat.

I am lucky, since the Phantom is not-at-all his cup of tea, that he suggested it this week, just because he knew I wanted to go.
I bought him a cake the next day, and had it inscribed “You survived the Phantom, Thanks”

If I had been braver, I would have written, “..were the corsets and legs worth it?” :)
 

Robert Saccone

Premium
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Messages
596
Why did the dub Minnie Driver's voice when I understand that she sings in the song that plays during the closing credits?




Moved here from the Review thread by moderator.
 

Brian W. Ralston

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 4, 1999
Messages
605
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Real Name
Brian W. Ralston


Miss Driver is a good singer, but she is not an operatic soprano like her role calls for. She can sing a pop song...yes. But she does not have the vocal abilities to pull off the high and powerful singing required of the role of Carlotta in THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA.
 

MatthewLouwrens

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
3,034
I have to say that I really hated that song. Weren't they going to try and actually include it in the body of the film? If so, it was a good decision to leave it out. Really bland song, and completely out of style with all the other music.
 

Edwin Pereyra

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1998
Messages
3,500
I cannot believe how so many people are forgiving about Minnie Driver's role, which is the film's biggest mistake. No, it is not okay for a dubbed performance in a live theater. Just because this is a film doesn't make it acceptable or any less of a travesty.

~Edwin
 

MatthewLouwrens

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
3,034
I am personally fine with it.

Minnie Driver played a minor role in the film. She was not the star of the film. She does not actaully have any big numbers herself. Her character is an opera singer, and she does some amount of singing in that context, but she does not have any real numbers to speak of. Minnie Driver played the actual character well, and so I was fine with the fact that they dubbed her voice.

Now, suppose this wasn't opera singing. Suppose it was violin playing. Suppose the film had a character that was a top violinist. Should they cast a world-class viloinist, or cast an actor and dub the violin playing? Almost every film would cast an actor to play the role, and that is accepted. Why should it be any different. Since she is a minor character, with no real numbers for herself other than her on-stage performance, and she is supposed to be a top opera singer, I think they made the logical and appropriate choice.

Hell, given the fact that in other classic musicals the lead characters have been dubbed (I know Audrey Hepburn was dubbed in My Fair Lady, and think Natalie Wood was in West Side Story), why should we criticise Phantom for dubbing a minor role when everyone that actually sings a song of any real consequence is really singing.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,810
Messages
5,123,551
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top