What's new

*** Official KINGDOM OF HEAVEN Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

James Luckard

Second Unit
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
362
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Real Name
James Luckard
I also thought the director's cut turned one of the worst movies of 2005 into one of the top 5. Fox sure isn't promoting the run, however. It ends tomorrow and I only saw one tiny ad on Xmas, when it came out. I saw it last Friday night with a friend and we were the only ones in an auditorium that probably seats 400. Nobody here in LA even knows about it.

About halfway through, I actually turned to my friend and said "My God, this is a completely different movie." Basically the studio cut all the quiet, contemplative bits, and most of the backstory for each character. They decimated Sibylla, the Eva Green character, cutting about ten minutes in one giant chunk towards the middle that explains why she allows her husband to become King of Jerusalem.

When I saw the theatrical version I was totally disappointed by Ridley Scott, one of my favorite directors, for wasting two years on such a mess. Now I see why he made the film. It's brutal (thanks to the reinstated carnage which got it an R) and intelligent and perfectly paced. The three hour version feels like two, while the two hour version felt like five.

It seems like the studio just hacked out all the dialogue scenes and left in the big effects scenes, making for a film that was incessantly noisy and mindless, when Scott had filmed a piece that looks at the Crusades with genuine intelligence. It'd play perfectly as a companion piece to Munich, which I had seen only days before.

Pity most people will only ever see it on a TV screen, because it was amazing on the big screen. It combined the epic sweep and emotional depth of Gladiator with the absolute mastery of war moviemaking that he demonstrated in Black Hawk Down.

As I read in one review of Black Hawk Down, despite the insanity, you never for a moment feel confused about where you are or what is happening, unless he wants you to. The man knows how to stage scenes and gives a sense of geography and proximity like nobody's business.

There really were too many great things about the KOH-DC to list, and everybody should experience the film for themselves when the DVD comes out, just forget that the two hour atrocity ever existed, this is the film Scott intended to make, and it's fantastic.
 

Aaron Reynolds

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
1,715
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Aaron Reynolds
Do we have anything on record to show that Fox took the film out of Scott's control and made the cuts to the longer version without his consent?

As I understood it, Scott created both cuts; one merely had a time limit imposed upon it.

I'm of the opinion that the original theatrical cut is quite a good film, judged on its own. I'm looking forward to viewing the longer cut, as well.

I merely object to the notion that there was some evil man with scissors who took the film away from Ridley Scott and reconstructed it without his input. More likely, there was a contracted length, the film went well over it, and Scott had to make cuts in order to hit the length that the studio had asked for. Then, in a show of support for the film, they've given Scott's longer cut a qualifying run so that it can compete in the Oscar race, and will undoubtedly release this longer version on DVD.

I just don't see any evil or stupidity here.
 

ZacharyTait

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2003
Messages
2,187
Jeff Wells of Hollywood Elsewhere really likes the DC of this movie as well. Hopefully, we'll get a DVD of this sometime in the next 6 months.
 

Josh.C

Second Unit
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
469
OK, I finally checked this one out last night. I'm a bit torn because I could not find a copy of the DC to rent, so I went with the TC instead (didn't want to buy the 4-disc on a whim). Although flawed, the TC kept my attention through the movie, and was not as bad as I had expected. The biggest problem I had was the bouncy camera in the fighting sequences. I'm not sure why, but I never really noticed them so much in Gladiator, but I couldn't help but be frustrated by it in KoH.

There also seemed to be some gaps in the story that I am guessing the DC may have went into depth on. Can someone who has seen the DC, go into detail on its merits. I have heard nothing but good things, but what parts of the story does it expand on?

TC- 71/2 of 10

JC
 

Nathan V

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jul 16, 2002
Messages
960
Josh C-

all parts, literally.

Buy the dvd now :) Eva Green's character is significantly expanded upon. Possibly the best of the contemporary epics, and certainly the best photographed. You can also check out the dvd thread on the DC over in HT Software.

Regards,
Nathan
 

Quentin

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
2,670
Location
Los Angeles
Real Name
Quentin H
I won't even let the theatrical cut show on my TV (it is currently running on HBO).

I think the DC is a phenomenal film, and could have been an awards contender. When I left the theater after seeing the theatrical cut, my reaction was "meh".
 

Chuck Mayer

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2001
Messages
8,516
Location
Northern Virginia
Real Name
Chuck Mayer
Josh,
I haven't seen the TC, and can't imagine how it makes any sense, especially for the Queen. The only cut I saw was the DC, and it was my second favorite film of 2005.
 

Jim_C

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
2,058
The DC is a far superior film. It frustrates me to no end that the DC wasn't the version originally released in theaters. If it was I'm sure KoH would have contended for many awards and received the recognition it deserves.
 

Quentin

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
2,670
Location
Los Angeles
Real Name
Quentin H

It DOESN'T make any sense, Chuck! Which is why my reaction to the film was "meh". It's a mess.

Had I seen the DC first, it would have made my list as well.
 

Tim Glover

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 12, 1999
Messages
8,220
Location
Monroe, LA
Real Name
Tim Glover
Same for me. I saw KOH opening day back in May 05 I think??? and left underwhelmed. From what Chuck and others said when the DC came out on dvd, it's far superior. I believe Robert Harris gave it a highly recommended feature as well. No one seems to have it to rent though. :frowning:
 

Josh.C

Second Unit
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
469
Yeah, I would love to have rented it. Looks like I'm going to have to break down and buy it on the recommendation of all of you guru's :). I don't think it's going to solve the shaky camera issue, but should do wonders for the story.

I'll keep an eye out for it on sale.

I saw the DVD in Best Buy the other day, and I thought it was a darn good looking 4-Disc Package.

JC
 

Aaron Reynolds

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
1,715
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Aaron Reynolds

To answer my own questions, we now know that, in fact, the film was designed to be cut down in this way before cameras ever rolled.

I don't think that the TC is a mess or a bad film. I think the longer cut is better in most ways, though there are a few too many characters who pop up, do little or nothing, and leave who were simply excised from the TC. And I really do think that the opening takes too long and throws too many people at you at once.

Chuck -- the Queen makes perfect sense in the TC, except perhaps her motivations near the end (though I never thought about it while watching the TC without the knowledge that there was a longer version) -- the son subplot was written in an encapsulated way so that it could be removed from the film without damaging the film's spine.
 

Nathan V

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jul 16, 2002
Messages
960
Aaron, is that info from the DC special features? Have you watched the DC features regarding this matter? (I haven't, and am curious)

Regards,
Nathan
 

Aaron Reynolds

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
1,715
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Aaron Reynolds


Yes, it's from the doc. They developed two parallel scripts, one of which they showed to the studio (who were concerned about running time and budget), and one of which they planned to film, with the ability to assemble either version. Basically, they got the greenlight to make the shorter one, and shoehorned the longer one into that budget and shooting schedule.
 

Chuck Mayer

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2001
Messages
8,516
Location
Northern Virginia
Real Name
Chuck Mayer
Aaron,
I think the son is such a vital part of the Queen and her motivations that I can't see her as nearly the same character if he is removed. Not just at the end, but throughout the story. I can't make comparisons. It's clear from the extras that the "w/o boy" was a concession to the studios the entire time.

As for renting vs. buying...this is a 4 disc Ridley Scott special edition. The extras alone justify the ownership...before you even watch the three hour Ridley Scott epic in dts :)
 

Yee-Ming

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2002
Messages
4,502
Location
"on a little street in Singapore"
Real Name
Yee Ming Lim
I had read reviews that said the TC was a mess, so I stayed away unless the DC on DVD came out, and finally watched it last night.

Outstanding. For a 194 min movie, it sure flew by! From comments here and on Wikipedia (which has a nice article on the movie, and of course links to "real history") it does seem that the excised portions made the TC incomprehensible, whereas the DC is, well, excellent.

I had forgotten most of the stuff I'd read in reviews at the time of the theatrical run, so I was trying to figure out who was playing King Baldwin IV, hidden behind that mask. It was a truly stupendous performance, considering that one of an actor's main tools, facial expressions, was not available to him. Credits told me: Edward Norton. Why am I not surprised? Even when he "phones in" a performance (e.g. Italian Job, where he wasn't keen and was forced to do it by contractual obligation) he's great.

I am really looking forward to viewing the extras, to learn more about this great movie.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Sign up for our newsletter

and receive essential news, curated deals, and much more







You will only receive emails from us. We will never sell or distribute your email address to third party companies at any time.

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
357,044
Messages
5,129,422
Members
144,285
Latest member
Larsenv
Recent bookmarks
0
Top