New SVS Sealed Sub (1 Viewer)

[Nhan_H]

Actually, the UFW12 is now being sold for around $700 (without RDES).

 

[Jack Gilvey]

RDES is its primary attraction, I think.

 

[Nhan_H]

It's a very good attraction, but most have been using the UFW12 without the RDES (which was being revised and now being shipped). The UFW can definitely function without RDES (just like any other sub). RDES is supposed to make it better by allowing you to smooth out the curve.

My point was that Without RDES, the comparison to the SVS sealed sub would be pretty appropriate (price-wise), since they are both sealed subs without any benefits of extra software/hardware controls.

 

[MikeNg]

Well, there's the size difference too. UFW12 is much larger than the SB12

UFW = 19 ¾” x 20 ¾” x 21 ½”
SB12 = Approx. 15” deep x 14" wide x 14 " high
I thought I'd never hear myself say an SVS product was smaller than ANYONE else's sub!

In fact, the SB12 appears to be only an inch or so larger in each dimension than the UFW10!

In any case, it'd be interesting to see how it performs.

 

[SVS-Ron]

All,

As Tom already reiterated, this is the sub, an SVS finally, that's truly small, and still deserves to be called a SUB-woofer. I've used and demo'd one on music and movies now quite a few times and frankly, it's shockingly good on deep movie audio in my own HT. Good as the (apparently) 5X larger PB12-Plus/2 that's sitting next to it? No, of course not. As stated, if "size" isn't an issue for you, then do NOT buy this sub. Get a more conventional (read, large) SVS or other well-designed big vented sub instead.

But over the years, it was quite clear that for many audio enthusiasts, size IS an issue, and we resolved to make a sub that forces as few compromises as possible in terms of cost or performance to achieve its smallness.

Recently at an open house here for people attending CEDIA I had a PC-Ultra, SB12-Plus, PB10-NSD and PB12-Plus/2 all in the back of my theater, all calibrated to the same level on a simple switcher. It's a small theater so the Plus/2 is rarely even close to straining, whereas the SB12-Plus was being pushed pretty hard. It was difficult to hear much change from scene from moment to moment. It was pretty obvious, that short of full theater reference levels that tiny (and it is tiny, a true 14" cube with the grill off) sub isn't really sacrificing much but the ultra deep stuff. Nobody is more of an advocate for ultra deep and linear bass than SVS, but I can say without reservation that I could live with this sub in a reasonably compact room. Only lots of experience with PC-Ultras, Plus/2 and the like in the same space would make you realize those biggie-sized subs take it deeper and louder still.

So is this your sub for massive theaters with cement floors and (if you have one) a penchant for Master and Commander at full-tilt Dolby reference? No, please get a bigger (even if less expensive) sub like the PB12-NSD or even a like-priced PC-Plus or PB12-NSD/2 and bask in their imposing size and deeper response (but again shockingly similar sound on most movies and pretty much all music).

There are some OEMs that'll tell you tiny subs are "all that" and a box of chocolates too. We're not among them. Small subs will always be something of a compromise on sheer objective performance performance and price. It's just that we've worked 2 years to limit that compromise to the point where most folks looking for small and sexy (just cuz it's small doesn't mean it shouldn't look good) simply won't see using a SB12-Plus as a compromise at all.

Doubly so if you survey the market and discover that indeed virtually all are either not as good, or more expensive, or of course both.

Get a big sub if you can. But we offer this for consideration if small fits your needs and you have resolved to give up as little performance as possible to those bigger subs.

After a few folks sample this outside SVS itself I'm quite convinced bigger subs will lose a bit of their hulking appeal. I know they have for me already. I've tucked five different 5.1 (some 7.1) systems into my house, and a stereo only rig too. An SB12-Plus will take center stage in one or more of them shortly (sadly this one I have has to go on to yet another location. There are just not that many of them at this stage, prior to main production starting at the end of the month). In more than one of those rigs there's no question that the SB12-Plus would be all the sub I'd need (though I DO have a penchant for Master and Commander at full theater level after all, so big "size is no object" SVS subs will of course get lots of play around here too).

It's sort of a new area for us, just as our very popular entry into the speaker world has been, but if it seems like we're genuinely excited about this new SVS, it's because we are.

Ron
SVS

 

[John Garcia]

Good stuff Ron

 

[dave alan]

I thought the 12.3 was a new driver? How could SVS have been working on this sub for 2 years if the driver has just become available? Were they working on the size of the box?

2 years to develop a small sealed 1X12 that's choked by a HP filter.

C'mon guys, I'm as excited as anyone that SVS has finally started to build a sub in a sensibly sized package with some cool features for a great price, but the 2 years-in-the-making part is a bit much and the HP filter is a bit disappointing.

 

[Edward J M]

I can count on one hand the number of sealed subwoofers on the OEM market that don't include a high pass filter.

We both know that in the world of the purist, retaining the 2nd order system results in optimal transient characteristics. But a moderate (say 2nd order) HP is a common-sense protective measure (in conjunction with the amp limiters) designed to help keep the subwoofer in one piece. Durability and a bullet-proof design is an important facet of any OEM offering.

Two years is nothing to go from scratch to shipping for any subwoofer design, particularly one that has new features that needed to be integrated into the amp board.

Can you imagine calling Indigo and saying:

"Hey guys, we want to squeeze balanced XLR I/Os, and our new room gain compensation control, and all of our other existing amp features into a new 425 watt platform - and oh BTW it needs to fit into this 14x14" sealed pressure cooker with complete reliability, oh and one more thing - it also needs to be CE certified for overseas shipping."

Heck the amp development alone probably sucked out more than half the R&D time on this project......

Regardless, I think the grille-retaining magnets buried in the cabinet are pretty trick.

 

[SVS-Ron]

Dave ("Bossobass"),

I have no idea if you are involved in manufacturing, but I would imagine not.

No company, no matter how large or small can often work continuously on a single project for two years. Two years represents instead a long period of commitment to the idea of bringing SVS performance to what you define as "sensibly sized" package (one man's "sensible" is another's "whacky" however. We only call it "small" instead). Given our penchant for big subwoofers, this compact sub from SVS might have died more than once in that period. It didn't. That's the point here, not how hard or how fast we can work against anyone's personal industry benchmark. Besides, two years from blank sheet of paper to a shipping product isn't too shabby in the big picture (even one as "simple" as what's arguably, and upon debut, among the world's best performing small subs in a given price class).

Certainly no progressive company can afford to wait for every piece to be available to start research in a new product direction. We were actually exploring this class leading product design well before the Plus 12.3 woofer was very far along (with "mules" based on at least a half dozen different woofers). Early results were encouraging, but failure to strike the right balance of price, size and performance with the various sources of available materials and components simply meant things were periodically set aside while other ideas and platforms are changed or improved, so the ultimate design meshes right. It's not like we wanted to wait this long to debut a small sub, but we're not in the habit of launching things we're then having to apologize for either. Whole parts were practically done from scratch and that's not easy or quick to do.

I think we spent several weeks just mucking about with amp plate thicknesses and anodized versus painted finishes. Magnetic grill retainers? More time. Establishing supply relationships with a vendor (there are dozens, if not hundreds, out there) that could hit CNC tolerances on fit with furniture-grade woods with tight shipping windows and even tighter prices? More time. Room Compensation controls are not unknown in the industry, but our desired way of implementing them on a totally new form factor, with a totally new woofer and new amp design took quite a while, and frankly went fairly fast, all things considered. Sadly, none of this is stuff you just pull from a catalog, or off a shelf. Every item has to be worked, hard.

Given we're unaware of any OEM having a package in this price range, or size with flat and powerful output like we achieved, I think the wait will prove worthwhile for customers. (Even though the time from official announcement till the first product shipping was just a matter of a few months).

Had this been the only project (among many that could have been sidelined as well, but weren't) I'm sure we could have shaved off a bit of time. Of course, we didn't hype it for years in advance either. It's only after the SB12-Plus's recent announcement that we wanted to shed some light on the fact that this was no "flash in the pan" project done just to rush a small sub to market. Ultimately it did take ramped up production of new, wildly popular Plus 12.3 woofer to finally push this design into the production-ready realm. It's a virtue to wait till things are just right sometimes. Just slotting quantities of these woofers for SB12-Plus sales took careful timing.

We're all aware of OEM designs that are announced long before they are ready, or launch with one problem after another (so it's obvious they should have waited for the bugs to be worked out too). While we'd love to work faster, and your chiding is well understood, it also demonstrates a large measure of naivete of what it takes to launch a flawless product 1.) In accordance with announced timeliness into a world wide market extending to Europe, Australia and South America. 2.) Which includes CE certification and sales/service networks to back them up in those markets, without negatively affecting our reputation for service in the US.

Things only our largest competitors even attempt to do.

That we're building these in Ohio (not unloading them as finished goods from China), all while proceeding on a half dozen other projects (some announced, some not) and starting production on the heels of a successful launch three new generations of in-house produced woofers?? I would hope, this might garner just a smidgen of understanding about how many "moving parts" there are to something so seemingly simple. You don't post a FR chart as we have on this sub, without sweating details for months, even years ahead of time.

PS, I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to any design, much less the SB12-Plus "choking on a HP filter". This sub is exceptionally linear and has a carefully controlled (variable) roll-off that's appropriate for its design goals and precisely what we set out to achieve.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-...plus.cfm#curve

Any engineering project will encompass various limitations asserted by size or cost or materials, but when other OEMs demonstrate 2 meter ground plane frequency response sweeps that challenge what this sub is pulling, then we'll be eager to have you explain it more fully to us (privately, we don't want other brands with whom you interact closely to get wind of it). For now we're quite happy to operate under the firm belief that few, maybe no major OEM is making smaller, more affordable subwoofers that work better or offer more features (with at least reasonably good styling in the mix). The market will decide if SVS has departed from its long practice of delivering on time, a product that actually delivers on its promise.

Cheers,

Ron Stimpson
SVS

 

[dave alan]

Ron ("SVS-Ron"),

"Given we're unaware of any OEM having a package in this price range, or size with flat and powerful output like we achieved,..."

I didn't mention any other OEM and this is irrelevant.

"You don't post a FR chart as we have on this sub, without sweating details for months, even years ahead of time."

Sure I do. It's easy. Or, you mean "other OEMs"?

"Certainly no progressive company can afford to wait for every piece to be available to start research in a new product direction. We were actually exploring this class leading product design well before the Plus 12.3 woofer was very far along (with "mules" based on at least a half dozen different woofers)."

"Ultimately it did take ramped up production of new, wildly popular Plus 12.3 woofer to finally push this design into the production-ready realm."

This is more to my point. I appreciate (after wading through all the other stuff in your response) that you admit that the sub was designed around the new driver in much less than 2 years, as I suspected.

"...(privately, we don't want other brands with whom you interact closely to get wind of it)."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. We'll keep it public, if you don't mind.

"PS, I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to any design, much less the SB12-Plus "choking on a HP filter". This sub is exceptionally linear and has a carefully controlled (variable) roll-off that's appropriate for its design goals and precisely what we set out to achieve."

Sorry for the slang, Ron. A control that allows user-selection of one of several HP filter points, each one of which is designed to prevent reproduction of frequencies below that pre-designed point (or choke off the lower frequencies), though a nice feature, is a less than ideal way to acheive the goal, given it's drawbacks, and is therefore a bit of a disappointment to me personally, FWIW, which surely isn't enough to warrant a multi-paragraph response.

Hope that is easier for you to understand (though we both know that you fully understood my original comment).

Ron, you're awfully sensitive, or is it me? I brought up 2 points: 1) 2 years seems a bit much, given the driver is much younger than that. 2) Using HP filters to acheive "room compensation" is a bit disappointing.

I certainly don't require a tutorial on how long it takes to arrive at such a design, but feel free to knock yourself out. As far as the logistics, and the 101 on what other OEMs do, it's not relevant to me, but I appreciate the thoughts.

Dave "Bossobass"

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

Just so I get this straight ...
1) Designing a subwoofer = slapping a woofer in a box
2) HP filters are naughty little rascals that deserve a paddlin'

Did I miss anything?

Sometimes I still wonder why those filters are so evil. But don't worry, I'll be sure to swat any that come my way.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Just so everyone is clear---the 12.3 driver and the SB12plus design were in development concurrently. Development(of both) started in 2004. If that confuses anyone, I'm sorry.

Tom V.
SVS

 

[steve nn]

Nothing confusing from my standpoint Tom. I know for a (fact) there is Iron behind your words.. Your a stand up guy who has earned my utmost respect.

 

[SVS-Ron]

Dave,

Your intent with those questions/criticisms seemed crystal clear, and I hope our respective responses are too (with whatever nominal effort reading them required).

In any case, I can understand how setting the public record straight might appear "sensitive" to those who's livelihood is not tied to development and launch of new audio products, or to those who have demonstrably poor understanding of the genesis of such a product.

However, we'd just call it being "thorough", so others here can gain some insight, or skip it, as they see fit.

In any case, this newest of SVS subwoofers will be shipping in just a few weeks now, and we'll let the product do the talking to extent possible. Two years, two days, two decades of R/D time won't matter at that point.

Ron
SVS

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Nothing confusing from my standpoint Tom. I know for a (fact) there is Iron behind your words.. Your a stand up guy who has earned my utmost respect.

 

[dave alan]

You know, Ron...the simplest way to understand my intent is to ask me. That way, my intent won't have to 'seem' like anything more or less than it is.

Most people, in fact the vast majority of speaker manufacturers whose livlihood is tied to development and launch of new products don't hang out here squashing opposing opinions like tiny little fires at their feet...in fact, you and Tom seem to be the only two who do.

My demonstrably poor understanding of the genesis of a 1X12" sealed subwoofer notwithstanding, I think my general understanding of such a design may exceed yours.

But, don't let that stop you from the attempt to belittle me in every conceivable way just because I have opinions about your little subwoofer that you perceive as ill intent, ignorance, jealousy, etc., etc.

Not only am I surprised that you two still engage in these tactics, I'm stunned that the rest of the forum sits by and lets you.

Instead of trying to talk over my head or tar and feather me, why don't you simply explain the virtues of the multi-HP filters 'room correction' feature so that I may stand corrected or see the error of my thinking?

Dave

 

[BillSuneson]

Dave,

Not to get in the middle of your rant, but why argue with someone about something that they made. Plain and simple if you dont' like it or don't really even care, leave it be. Nobody is forcing anything on you, so why act like they are making a personal attack on you?

Just my $.02

Bill

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

Squashing opinions? I thought you were arguing the design schedule for the SB12plus. So now schedules and timelines exist within the realm of "opinion"?

I still find it more difficult to conceive the _disadvantages_ of active filtering.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Funny how the incredibly steep, GD-inducing 84dB/oct. (?) HP filter somehow went undetected for so long by all the gurus/bass experts in the oh-so-musical UFW12 thing. Only after your objective testing revealed how seriously flawed this "'design" was (something like three years in the making from announcement to delivery) was AV123 compelled to "fix" it.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Dave,

Technically, the room comp indeed employs high pass filtering below 35 Hz. Functionally that’s not the way it works though, and I can assure you the SB12 is not “choking” anything. This is because the BASH amp has a low freq boost below 35 Hz when the compensation is bypassed. In other words, the room compensation merely reduces the amount of boost so smaller rooms won’t be swamped with excessive low end. I recently had the SB12 here for a couple of weeks, and it hit a solid 23 Hz in my 9200 cu. ft. room. IMO that’s pretty impressive from a box that’s a smidge over a foot cubed.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt