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New Outlaw LFM-1 and SVS PB2-ISD review (1 Viewer)

Craig Chase

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Ben - The only part of your post that I find annoying is your "flame suit on" comment. You own the Outlaw, and like it. That is great. Had the review actually been about the PB1-ISD, the Outlaw, and the STF-3, You would have read that the three subs are very close in performance.

What that graph does NOT show is what happens as volume goes up... The PB2-ISD will continue making clean bass past the point where the Outlaw cannot. That is one reason Outlaw makes the $999 option for TWO subwoofers available... when one is just not enough.
 

BenCosta

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While the "flame suit on comment" was meant to be more tongue in cheek than anything else I still figured I would immediately be criticized for my opinion as this forum seems to be so heavily in favor of all things SVS compared to many of the other user forums. Just the fact that this thread started as a sub review thread than predictably ran into another chat about various SVS models is the case in point.

By the way, when I bought the LFM they never stated the benefit of two subs was for louder bass (they said one was loud enough). They did say that with two subs we could get a smoother FR in a larger sweet spot (which quite frankly is true of any sub, nothing new here).

Also, I'm not sure what you are implying here: "Had the review actually been about the PB1-ISD, the Outlaw, and the STF-3, You would have read that the three subs are very close in performance."

I don't think I ever mentioned the HSU??

For the record, I do not have an LFM in my system. I purchased the LFM for my parents. I use a REL in my system.

Peace-

Ben
 

BenCosta

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Assuming your comment is also "tongue in cheek", that was not my intent at all. I was merely indicating my reasoning behind the "flame suit on" comment. Since I don't think the direction this thread is going in is worth continuance I'll abstain from further comment on past posts.

Of course if this returns to a healthy discussion of the differences or similarities between the subs I'd be happy to participate having had spent many hours listening and setting up the LFM.

Peace-

Ben
 

Craig Chase

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Ben, I was not tongue in cheek. I would really like to talk about the Outlaw sub. I like their stuff... In fact, I was one of their very first customers... the original 750 Amp... The subwoofer is an excellent unit.
 

BenCosta

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Cool. Here's a discussion point. Both subs have a pretty darn smooth frequency response. Which is superior is a matter of preference. To me, I find the LFM response a little more desirable because removing the dip at 50, the FR from about 25 to about 60 is virtually a straight line. Whereas the SVS shifts a bit more. Of course as Tom pointed out, factoring that 50Hz dip in, the LFM had a slightly larger dB shift overall. Since it is easier to EQ for one frequency than multiple frequencies, I prefer the LFM FR than that of the PB2. Either way I just don't think you can lose with either of these subs.

Peace-

Ben
 

Craig Chase

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On paper that makes sense. What you cannot see is the effect of the room on either subwoofer. Move either one foot, and you get a completely different frequency response. I have personally done over 500 measurements on the VTF-3 Mark II, PB2+, Rocket UFW-10, Aperion S-12 ... and a bunch more.

In the case of the VTF-3, which is darn close to the Outlaw, moving it one foot changed the frequency response dramatically... including one having a 10 dB null vs. a 3 dB null in the mid to upper 20 Hz range.
 

Edward J M

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Since I can count the number of anechoic subwoofer chambers in the world on one hand, the only way to get the true FR of each subwoofer is to test it outside, ground plane at 2 meters.

Failing that, a near field test location can work, but with a sub the size of the PB2, the contributions from both woofers and the vents may not completely "sum" before reaching the mic and this can negatively affect the near field FR.

Anyway, both subs posted damn good in-room FRs at the listening position. Whichever FR curve you prefer is cool, because I doubt the minor FR differences between the two subs would be audible in the 25-80 Hz region. The deeper extension of the PB2 will be noticeable depending on the source material, though.

No one is here to flame you Ben; the LFM-1 posted a great showing, as did the PB2-ISD. Tangential discussion about Hsu are natural since he designed the LFM-1 and it shares nearly all functional components with the STF-3 (which is definitely not a bad thing as Craig already pointed out). You made a fine choice in a subwoofer. :emoji_thumbsup:
 

Chris Quinn

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WOW! Thanks for a sub thread that isn't a flame war. The only reason I checked it out was because Curtis started it.
 

Shane Martin

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Actually that is what I read from the review. Both are still incredible values when you compare them to what is commercially available as opposed to these Internet direct efforts. Neither is really a MORE incredible value because they don't perform or cost the same. If the Outlaw had been superior in every area over the SVS then I would agree with the statement that the Outlaw is a better value. The fact is that the SVS outperforms it down low(past a certain point for some folks), so it all depends on your priorities.

Value is a difficult thing to discuss indeed.
 

Craig Chase

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Shane - You are right in that both are tremendous values... in the summary review of our comparison, I am not sure this was put in there... but a several people asked about the size of the subs, and how they looked in room... the basic conversation from my wife (note I said FROM ... not WITH...)...

1. Upon seeing the PB2+ ... "You want to keep that large black box in this room ? It is pretty ugly"...

So... A week later the Hsu pair arrives... I carry them in, set them up, and to reduce shock factor, carry out the PB2+ ... her response...

2. Upon seeing the TWO VTF-3's "You think putting two smaller black boxes into my room (note, it is now HER room) instead of one BIG black box will help ?) ... They are still ugly..."

She takes this decorating stuff seriously...
 

SVS-Ron

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Shane,

That's a great summary. Both were reviewed well in their own ways, but certainly they are not directly comparable in many respects. The SVS goes much stronger/lower (though the testing only hinted at this) and probably you would need two of the of the Outlaw subs to equal the output the PB2-ISD is capable of. The SVS is accordingly larger and more costly than a single Outlaw. All as you would expect.

Not all need or even WANT this sort of capability of course so the Outlaw might well be a smarter choice. Of course we offer a $600 sub that might be considered if the sheer cost/size and capability of the PB2-ISD wasn't a good fit for a customer. The simple fact is, if you are hitting your output and extension goals in your particular room then you should be pleased to stop right there with the sub you have and not spend more.

These are two subs targeting much different end users (with rooms, extension and output targets that differ significantly) and apparently both seen as excellent values when taken in that context.

Ron
 

Ned

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The Audioholic's review was edited since first being posted.

The SVS is now an "excellent value". It was a "good value" originally. The praise in the written portion didn't match up with the conclusion. I think it was good of them to make the change.
 

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