NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread (1 Viewer)

[Lew Crippen]

Come on Seth--you don´t have to be that much of an apologist. Artest is a grown man, making grown man money. If you think that he should be viewed as an underage kid, then he should not be playing with the grownups.

Regardless of your slightly revisionist history (he was not without some considerable fault last year, for example), Artest is regularaly involved in too many physical, verbal and overall emotional loss of control to say everyting´s now OK and it is time to just move on.

As for the fight--at the end of the day players that respond to fans are in the wrong--and everyone of them know it. This gets explained over and over to the players before the start of each season (the same in the MLB). They all know that they can´t go into the stands--or even physically assult fans that are no longer in the stands.

Personally I agree with Charles Barkley´s comment before one of the games where he said that Artest needed to get some professional help. He is not the first (and likely won´t be the last) player to be extremely talented, but mentally troubled.

Here is hoping that he will get the help he needs.

 

[Kirk Tsai]

I think it is reasonable to ask if others would have acted the same way Artest and Jackson did under the circumstances. What I think is harmful is the reinforcement that one should or must act that way to be considered a real man. The way athletes behave is not just a matter of personal psychology (though that certainly is a big part), but also social expectations or code of behavior.

That is where my comment comes from, I apologize if my previous post was too personal.

 

[Robert Crawford]

ESPN is reporting that Artest, Ben Wallace, Jackson and O'Neal have been suspended indefinitely until the NBA investigation is completed.





Crawdaddy

 

[ZacharyTait]

I can understand Jackson, Artest, and O'neal being suspended since they went into the stands and fought with fans, but Ben Wallace? WTF? All he did was shove Artest hard and throw a towel at him.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

I hope that this doesn't mean what I think it means. I hope this is one of those times when a tongue and cheek remark gets right past me. Your comment looks like you're celebrating this kind of behavior. Its like you have now been vindicated by you're remarks about the toughness in the east because of a wild brawl between 2 Eastern teams and some drunken fans. I'm not sure what that has to do with the game of basketball outside of the fact that it took place in a basketball arena during the game. It certainly isn't part of the game.
But, if things like last night are what you use to point out what true toughness really is, then I'm quite happy if the West is thought of as the weaker conference.
That comment is as rediculous as if I were to say that since it didn't happen between 2 Western conference teams then that must mean that the West is the more sportsman like conference with better fans. The argument is imperfect to begin with because there are classy and classless fans no matter where in the NBA landscape you choose to look, and there are tough players all over the place. Some may be able to keep their heads on better than others but that has nothing to do with the conference they play in, but again if what happened last night proves to you and is supposed to show the world how tough the east really is, then they can have the label.

 

[Brandon_T]

DAMMIT...where was Darko through all of that, I mean come on, he has to be able to do something for the Pistons...

Sorry, just trying to shed a little humor on this horrible day.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Seriously, when I first heard about this incident I had 2 thoughts.

1. When did the NHL's lockout end?
2. Where was Darco?

I wanted to know what he was up to.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Others from inside the organization have also backed this version up. In fact, as I understand it the album part partly got brought up because he had used up his off time with the album and was feeling burned out in general from not being with his family.

Of course the reaction is "tough shit, this is your job", but such a request sure falls in line with "sit 2 games with pay" more than a request to go work on the R&B album he produced (also misreported as his own rap album which just goes to show how out of control 2nd hand info can get).



Ron is a guy who has DRAMATICALLY improved his behavior under Carlisle, but unfortunately all anyone sees is the rep still. I get why that happens but at the same time I think people should recognize change. Before Detroit fans took justice and interaction into their own hands, Ron was being a model player despite very serious provocation by Wallace.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Meanwhile, the incident and Stern's 3 player suspension immediately has actually done wonders for Pacers support. We went to the Magic game tonight and everyone agreed it was the loudest we had ever heard the fans in Conseco (not known for the loud atmosphere that MSA used to have).

Now I disagree with that a bit. I have heard it louder for a few playoff games, but for a regular season game against a revamped Magic squad with no particular issue with the Pacers the crowd was insane. At one point they chanted "FRED-DIE, FRED-DIE" as loudly as they have ever chanted for Reggie.

It was some of the most spontaneous cheering I've ever heard out of Indy fans.

I myself felt a hunger for victory that I haven't felt since the 98 Bulls series or the early 90's 5 game set with the Celtics (the Person-Bird series).

I honestly think that this situation has created an extremely strong "us vs them" mentality beyond any I have ever seen for any Indy team, and in a town with a long history of also-rans and just missed teams that's saying something.


The Pacers played with SIX GUYS. SIX. Think about that. And one of them was John Edwards, a guy who would have trouble making a former CBA squad.

The 6 man roster that came within a 3 of tying the game-

7th man Fred Jones (behind Jackson-Miller on bench)
8-9th man Croshere (maybe behind Johnson)
12th man rookie center David Harrison
James Jones (wouldn't make normal roster)
Eddie Gill (wouldn't make normal roster)
John Edwards (wouldn't make normal roster)

Seriously, does the Pacer depth need to be questioned any further? They were missing Artest, O'Neal, Jackson, Miller, Tinsley, Pollard, Foster, Bender, and Anthony Johnson. Truly the most insane lineup I've ever seen fielded in an NBA game.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Seth,
I know you're a Pacers fan and you feel the need to defend your guy, but come on, Artest's reputation is well earned and he has nobody to blame for it, but himself. To say that people should recognize change is fine and dandy, but most people, especically those that are not Pacer or NBA fans have little time nor the inclination to recognize change about Artest or any other Pacer player. In this type of incident, prior perceptions play a big role on how people view this incident and that's just the way it's going to be.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Actually, I find that quite sad because it speaks to the "out of sync" mentality of some people. This incident was horrible and everybody involved in it should be ashamed of themselves on how they behaved during it. I'm not going to blame anybody specifically because too many are guilty and it does little good to do so. I'm not a Pacer or Piston fan and to be honest, I don't particularly like to watch NBA basketball anymore, but something is terribly wrong in our society and this latest incident is just another symptom of what's wrong. We are really setting a good example for our young people by suggesting that a player or fan who acts like a thug is acceptable behavior and his actions should be supported. Don't we have enough divide among us without having to foster another divisive theme of "us against them" mentality? Whether you like it or not, every person that participated in making that incident worse than it should have been was wrong in their behavior and I personally can't defend their actions.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I missed the ugly incident on Friday night, but from what I've seen and read since, I have to agree with Robert. There is plenty of blame to go around -- fans, players, officials, etc. I'm thoroughly disgusted by this entire incident, and personally could care less how the fallout affects either Detroit or Indy's remaining season. Whatever happens to either team, the officials or the fans is deserved, and will probably be less than each should get. This does not help a league that is already fighting an image problem, and it also casts another dark shadow over the Detroit sports fan image.

I do not want to see sporting events in this country turn into South American soccer matches, with barbed wire separating players from fans. Incidents like this, though, make you wonder when it may come to that.

 

[Lew Crippen]

You answered the question yourself Seth--he was suspended twice.

And yes, he was ´better´ last year than this year. But still (and I am not looking this up) I´m pretty sure that two suspesions are more than the majority of NBA players.

All of the words and spin don´t change the fact that Artest and Jackson went into the stands, with the full knowledge that it was against the rules.

Other, similar incidents have resulted in suspensions.

BTW Seth, I don´t think I ever said that I should decide the prior penalty instead of the Pacers´ organization. I happen to think that their actions showed a preference for winning games over maintaining internal discipline--but that is their call, not mine or anyone elses.

I also don´t think that anyone has made the arguement that Artest is not allowed to show improvement. But the bottom line is that he has a rep--most of it well earned.

 

[Haggai]

Interesting speculation about possible league actions against the Pacers and Pistons in this column by ESPN's Marc Stein. He draws a couple of international soccer analogies, one related to an old incident that I knew about, another one to more recent events that I hadn't heard of. Here's the part about the older incident, after a reference to the Rockets' Vernon Maxwell's 10-game suspension in 1995 for going after a fan in the stands:


I'm not sure I would characterize those incidents as "the natural response" in soccer-centric countries, only since I've never heard about it happening before (just in the sense that Stein's use of "natural" seems almost synonymous with "normal" or "usual," which I don't think is quite accurate). It would be a very harsh step, to be sure, and I doubt the league is going to want to forgo that much revenue. But I guess there's a chance that they'll decide it would be better in the long run to do something that drastic to improve their image.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Seth these other guys are right. The question is not whether Ron Artest has made an attempt to improve his image or character, and it is not about whether or not we choose to accept his behavior.

The point is that Artest may have been trying to improve his image but that should not, could not, and will not be a valid excuse for his actions on Friday.

As for whether or not I understood you, I understood you completely...you can spin this in his favor all you want, but had it been anyone else, not in a Pacer uniform you wouldn't be seeing it the same way you are in the case of Ron Artest.

 

[Shane Martin]

Suspensions are in:

Artest: See you next year
O'Neil: See you in 25 days
Jackson: See you in 30 days
Wallace: See you in 5 days.

All fair IMHO.

Next up: Lawsuits.

 

[Raasean Asaad]

You mean games...


Heck of a lot longer than the equivilent in days.

 

[Lew Crippen]

And a slew of one game, slap on the wrist penalties

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

You know, this has changed the landscape in the Eastern Conference at least as it relates to playoff placement...and it may impact who makes the playoffs entirely.

Indiana benefits from being in the Eastern Conference. If they were a Western team this would have totally ruined their playoff hopes, but the weaker field over in the East means that they still have a pretty good chance to make the playoffs, and what if they make it as 8 and Detroit makes it as 1? That means your potential NBA Eastern Finals matchup is now a round 1 best of 7.

You know, Pacer fans might be able at the end of the year to say that things would've been different if they had O'Neil or Artest, or Jackson for all of those games, and IMO that will be as valid a complaint as fans of teams that lose key guys due to injury might have. Whether we want to admit it or not these suspentions are almost like these players got injured, the only difference is that the injuries were self-inflicted.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

...and the players are not getting paid millions during their "injury", of course.

I guess that Artest will now have plenty of time to work on his new album now.