My Denon DVD 2900 review [long] (1 Viewer)

[Lewis Besze]

3) To the guys that buys online, where are you buying? Are you getting good deals? What happens if you buy from an unauthorized dealer online? I live in Monterrey, Mexico and I use to buy online and receive my packages in Laredo TX USA. I usually try to use online dealers with very good reputation since it is more difficult to me to return a product or validate a warranty

Yes I'm not sure what are the laws In Mexico,but here in the US it's governed by the states.
In any case I got mine from here It was $795.00 but looks like they bumped it to $845.00.
The MSRP is :$999.00

 

[JoseLuisG]

Lewis:

It seems that those guys are not a Denon Authorized Dealer, what happens to the warranty in that case? I will buy as if I live in Laredo TX, USA where I rent a physical address. Since I heard some issues with the 2900 (not the BM ones, but guys that needs a replacement) I'm a little worried to buy online but also have the warranty to exchange the product either with the dealer or directly from Denon Repair centers. My problem is since I live in Mexico, I use to drive to Laredo TX to pickup my package and then come back to Mexico. If I notice any problem, I need to drive again to Laredo to send the product back. Sometimes, that takes more than 30 days and that is why I need a dealer who cares about it.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I should probably put an email to those guys.

Best Regards

Jw

 

[Guy Robinson]

This thread is so long....................

Well Beck's Sea Change is the best sounding multi-channel SACD that I have and The Game is probably the best sounding DVD-A. The Aaron Neville discs are also very good (surprise they are Silverline, the bane of DVD-A) but you have to be into that kind of stuff. After about a year of listening to both I find that DVD-A is better for multi-channel. It sounds more natural. However, Sea Change is one of the exceptions for SACD surround. It is phenomenal. Now in stereo, SACD wins. The Peter Gabriel #3 and Security are good choices in SACD. Both great discs.

 

[Steve_AS]

And, before you ask, yes, I did level-match all channels when making this comparison. For those familiar with the player, I had to increase the level of the center channel signal to the last "line" in the first grouping of lines and the rear channels to the first line of the second set of lines. Nonetheless, it sounded substantially inferior to a "direct" (non-bm'd, non-level matched) signal, and far inferior to "direct" signal bm'd with the Outlaw ICBM-1.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you: what do you believe is the cause of the 'degradation' you hear? Is it the intrinsic settings of the circuitry, or is it A/D/A conversion per se, or conversion of DSD-->PCM per se (assumign that's what's happening), or is it the Sony's implementation of that conversion? I ask because elsewhere you seem very concerned about whether a player does DSD-->PCM conversion or not.

Anyway, here's more of my thoughts, which I'm sure you crave ; >

When you are in something other that 'direct' mode, I take it that all three of these player functions are in play:

Bass management
speaker level adjustment
time alignment

If any one of them results in a different speaker output level of at least a half a dB or so, or different EQ, compared to 'direct', then the cause of 'degradation' will be hard to pinpoint. To make the claim that it's because the Sony redigitizes the signal, for example, is not proved.

Regarding speaker levels, for a proper comparison you'd want to level match the two 'treatments' -- in other words, the levels from a given channel should be the same when the material is played 'direct' (either with or without the ICBM) or through the BM circuitry. Level matching the individual channels , without also matching between treatments, could in fact easily result in big sonic differences that have nothing to do with 'degradation' of the signal, if it turns out one treatment is channel-matched and the other isn.t.

(Needless to say, as the sounds become less different, expectation effects come more into play, and would also have to be controlled for.)

 

[Guy Robinson]

Oh, and I forgot. The SACD of Dark Side of the Moon is much inferior to the DTS version I have of the original QUAD Alan Parsons mix. Anyone that I A/B it with agrees. The SACD release was a mistake no matter what the band and other people say. I only use the SACD to show other people that sonics do not outweigh a superior mix. The DTS mix is even clearer and more detailed believe or not. There are sounds missing from the SACD version.

 

[Bruce Tritch]

Hi-
I've been using the Denon DVD 2900 with the Outlaw 950 PrePro. Here's what I think.
I think the test tones from the 2900 are screwed up. Since the 2900 only allows for 10 dB of difference from the PrePro settings, I can't simply balance my Outlaw, then be able to get the Denon to balance without further adjusting the Outlaw sub output. A few dB of the difference is in sub output during the other 5 channels test tones.Furthermore, if I do balance the system using the Denon tones, I get way too much bass. Different people have reported different things when using different methods and test disks to measure bass.
But the proof is in the pudding.
It sounds great. Sure, I'd like a definitive test to properly set up the system. I figure that will come in time.

As for sonics:
I compared 2-channel sound from the 2900 analogue output versus its digital output. My 2 channel set up runs the digital coax into a Monarchy 24/96 DIP and then out the balanced output to a MSB Nelson DAC with Powerbase. This is a Stereophile highly rated setup dubbed a great value. I like the 2900 better. Low level detail was better. On Jacob Dylan's 'Bringing down the Horse', with the MSB at one point I heard an wispy sound effect. Thru the Denon, I heard a wispy sound. Voices were more natural, with less digital nonsense. The Denon simply sounded less like CD.

On Hi-Res DTS material: No contest. The Denon blows the Outlaw out of the water. I'll try low (regular) res DTS and report. For crappy digital sounding DD, there wasn't much difference. The Outlaw gave me a chance to tame the wild beast. I'll report later on quality DD material.

I always welcome info on all relevant Bass management settings from owners of the Denon 2900/Outlaw 950 combo. Until we get a Hybrid DD/DTS/CD/SACD/DVD-A test disk...

 

[HarryR]

Is anybody using this with a Marantz receiver yet? My receiver will cut the first fraction of a second off the music when in digital mode listening to CD's. Does anyone know if the Denon keeps a continuous signal rather than cutting the signal between songs so that the receiver will stay on and I wont miss the music.

Thanks!

 

[Rachael B]

Guyz, Jacintha has a new SACD coming out, I think next month...? I saw it either on Acoustic Sounds or Elusive Disc's site. I can't remember which. I have all three of her older releases, I think I favor the one she does a bunch of Johnny Mercer songs on. I particularly like her AUTUMN LEAVES which starts out in French and has some English near the end. All three of her albums are real good, I'd say if you see your fav jazz standard on one of them, try that one first. They're all good!

 

[RAF]

RAF,
which Jacinta would you recommend for someone who never heard her music,also who's music would she compare to the best, so I can have some idea about her style?
I think it has more to do with the new mix then anything else

All three titles now available (a fourth is due around June, I believe) are good. They include:

Here's to Ben - A Vocal Tribute to Ben Webster (1999)
Autumn Leaves - The Songs of Johnny Mercer (2000)
Lush Life (2002)

The new title will be:
Jacintha is Her Name (June, 2003)

I love all three titles. Lush Life is the only one in Multi-Channel SACD (the other two are 2 Channel SACD.) Since I'm still waiting for my 2900 to arrive I can't comment on the difference. In any event, Jacintha has a beautiful, haunting voice. Several of the tunes on each album are largely a capella so that you can concentrate on how your equipment reproduces the human voice. Who does she sound like? Hard to put my finger on it (others may chime in here) other than I love the sound of it.

And when I first got my SONY 9000ES when it was introduced it was the MOON RIVER track on Autumn Leaves that showed me what SACD was capable of reproducing. I thought that I heard some "print through" music in the background of this voice-only track until I realized that it was the sound coming from her headphones that SACD was reproducing. Enlightening!

 

[Lewis Besze]

Hey Bruce,
I'm glad you're having a good experience with the 2900.My Outlaw 950 spends much more time in it's 6ch bypass mode,then ever before.

RAF, Rachael,
Thanks for the Jacintha recommendations.
I'm between Lush Life,and Autumn Leaves,don't know which one yet,maybe I'll get both.
Now, she sings but there is also instruments as well right?
Like a jazz trio,quartet accompanying her?

 

[Peter Loan]

Hmm, I might have to budge and get a 2900.

Too all of the Outlaw 950/2900 owners, I'm assuming you have the 80hz analog crossover engaged and the 2900 has the option to just send out an unadulterated signal?

 

[Lewis Besze]

Not me!
I use the BM in the 2900.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Lewis, does the 2900 have a 5 large speaker setting with no sub? If it does, does it redirect the LFE to the mains? Thanks.

 

[William_Morr]

Peter,

I have the 2900/950 combo and I've tried the bass management both ways with about the same results. I have no preference right now.

Charles,

I tried to get the LFE to redirect to the mains but I haven't gotten it to work yet. In the 2900 I set the speakers to Large and the sub to No, tried the LFE sweep and 6 channel pan on the Avia test disc and got no sound when the LFE was supposedly playing. There may be a discrepancy between the Avia's output and description on the screen wrt LFE output. I've ordered another test disc (Chesky Ultimate) and will report on the result next week.

 

[Rich Malloy]

PCM conversion or not.

Simple answer here: I don't know.

I don't know why the sound is degraded, and I only brought up the DSD-PCM coversion because some have suggested that this might be the culprit. Apparently some universal players do a DSD-PCM conversion on every SACD signal, regardless of whether bass management is applied, and so some have seized on this to explain the curiously poor performance of these players on SACD sources. Is it, in fact, behind the problems of Sony's attempts at onboard bass management in their players? I simply don't know. Wish I did.

But I'm not lying to you about the effects. I've gone through the process of comparison four times now, with all manner of multichannel SACDs, and always the same result. And I'm not talking "a bit more grain in the higher frequencies" or a "slightly smaller soundstage". I'm talking about the kind of difference that my wife, barely paying attention, can immediately notice as I A:B for her. Yes, that's a single-blind test... not that she has any preconceptions anyway!

I know there's a bunch of you on these forums, and in this thread, with Sony ES players and Sony CE775. Some of you guys convinced me to go SACD and helped me select a player (the C555ES). I'm thankful for it, and despite these problems I'm raising, it's done more than any other recent upgrade to improve my enjoyment of music.

But where are you guys on this issue? I can't believe for a second that you're not rushing home to compare, especially if you've been using the onboard bass management without comparing it to the "direct" mode. I mean, aren't we always tweaking around here? If you're using the onboard bass management and don't have "cube" styled speakers, believe me... this is a major "tweak" (if you want to look at it that way). If you've been using an ICBM from the get-go, or have full-range speakers, and so in either case have never checked out the onboard bass management... why not? How about helping out your fellow audio enthusiasts here?

And if I'm wrong that means my C555ES is defective and I need to make use of that 5-year warranty.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Rich, I have the Onkyo DV-SP800 and noticed a big drop in sound quality as well when using any BM settings. Matter of fact, I decided it was better to run all speakers as large and even high passed my center with my sub to do so. So I have it setup as 5 large speakers with NO sub. I am pretty sure this loses the LFE but so far I haven't noticed any lack of bass with this setup.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Yes, Avia doesn't have discreet LFE signal,not sure about the Chesky disc.

 

[RAF]

Now, she sings but there is also instruments as well right?
Like a jazz trio,quartet accompanying her?

Correct, although a significant amount of the time she sings without accompaniment. A very nice voice (and a good example of what SACD is capable of reproducing, IMHO.)

Enjoy!

 

[Brian L]

Yes, Avia doesn't have discreet LFE signal,not sure about the Chesky disc.

Chesky has a discrete LFE tone as part of the channel balancing sequence. It also produces LFE as part of the subwoofer phase tests. A very handy test, BTW.

The tests are present in both DD and DVD-A.

BGL

 

[Bruce Tritch]

I have a bunch of small comments on the last 20 posts:
On DSD-PCM conversion, my understanding is that 'cheap' players do the conversion and thus lose the benefit of DSD while retaining the ability to claim 'Plays SACD'. The 2900 does not. Is the issue "Does the 2900 convert bass to PCM and then preform bass management on it?" I seriously doubt it. But the 'quality' of the bass is consistent, regardless of various settings, to my ear. The degree of signal degradation that any signal undergoes has to be tempered by the quality of the associated equipment. My setup uses Stereophile B and some A rated stuff, SGTHT AA and AAA rated equipment. The signal is not degraded on my system.

With the bass management on the 2900 on and the Outlaw bass management off (down position) you will have deficiency of bass in the area between the rolloff frequencies of your sub and the rolloff frequencies of your speakers.

The 2900 does not redirect LFE to any speakers with the sub set to off. Sub set to off turns off the LFE channel. The 2900 is not a PrePro.

Be clear when thinking of LFE and low bass. LFE goes to the sub. Low bass can occur on any channel. For example, it is possible for some malicious SOB to create a disk with sustained 115 dB 20 Hz bass in all 5 channels, with no LFE whatsoever. This is what the warnings about speaker damage are alluding to.