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Musicals: From Stage & Film to Blu-ray (2 Viewers)

GMpasqua

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Originally Posted by allanfisch
Yes, it was like that in the theater. Margaret Boothe(a very nice lady and one of the treasures of MGM and the motion picture industry, RIP) was the supervising film editor, and possibly was stone deaf by this point. But the "extras"s are all ADR'd anyway. Hell, I was watching parts of The Ten Commandments and the "looping" of the extras in that film is ludicrous as well. What about the festival scene in The Sound of Music when Max is making announcements about the fate of the Von Trapps and there is a very loud, grumbling "Third Reich" from the audience...this kinda thing not new and I would not call it a mistake or error, it's just a creative decision. Sometimes things are done in the film-making process, that while appearing odd or strange to the general public, actually were done for a reason. Perhaps the street scenes in Annie woud have been even more dead and lifeless w/o the dubbing!
Allan any idea if the original filmed songs from "Annie' still exist? I've read before cuts the film ran over 4 hours? And that as before the called the cast back 6 months later to re-shoot 4 or 5 songs
 

allanfisch

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No idea, sorry....


Originally Posted by GMpasqua
Allan any idea if the original filmed songs from "Annie' still exist? I've read before cuts the film ran over 4 hours? And that as before the called the cast back 6 months later to re-shoot 4 or 5 songs
 

Ethan Riley

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Originally Posted by allanfisch
Yes, it was like that in the theater. Margaret Boothe(a very nice lady and one of the treasures of MGM and the motion picture industry, RIP) was the supervising film editor, and possibly was stone deaf by this point. But the "extras"s are all ADR'd anyway. Hell, I was watching parts of The Ten Commandments and the "looping" of the extras in that film is ludicrous as well. What about the festival scene in The Sound of Music when Max is making announcements about the fate of the Von Trapps and there is a very loud, grumbling "Third Reich" from the audience...this kinda thing not new and I would not call it a mistake or error, it's just a creative decision. Sometimes things are done in the film-making process, that while appearing odd or strange to the general public, actually were done for a reason. Perhaps the street scenes in Annie woud have been even more dead and lifeless w/o the dubbing!
Well there you have it--mystery solved. Annie sounds so weird because it had a deaf film editor! I just watched Annie again the other day, those loop actors really went to town. I think they were having a wee bit too much fun. I mean, when Warbucks comes up to the orphanage someone says "I bet he's the first owner of that suit!" Gah---! And then right before that, there's a wagon passing by with a guy selling stuff to an unseen lady. No problem, but he's tearing across the street very quickly and thanking the lady for her purchase, meaning she must have suddenly grabbed something off the cart, thrown the money in his face and ran off. The looped dialogue just doesn't match the logic of the scene. Just weird, weird looping choices vs. what the extras were supposedly doing and saying--it never quite matches up. The only thing I can compare it to is the street scenes in "Scrooge" wherein an unseen woman keeps screaming out either "Sweet Lavender!" or maybe "Street Scavenger!" That always bothered me lol though I don't know why.

Yeah, we haven't mentioned Scrooge yet. There's another one that needs to go blu. The existing dvd looks a little dirty and the sound is weak. They probably need to do a lot of work before an upgrade, but it is on my list--
 

Ethan Riley

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MatthewA said:
, exactly how did a stereo film become a mono one on home video? For a 1950s film I can see them "misplacing" the stereo tracks, but for a film from 1982? What's interesting is that there isn't even a credit for Dolby Stereo in the film. The 4 track sound must have been the only stereo mix. But what gives?
You are right about Mary Poppins: Disney has all the separate process shots and animation and the plan is to re-marry them before bluray release. They're gonna do it--it's just gonna take a little time, and since it's the Crown Jewel of Disney's live action films, it's got to be done right the first time. But that way you won't get translucent squirrels running around Bert's feet. Disney is well aware of these issues. And you can believe me--the film elements for Mary Poppins have been very well preserved. Whatever happens, you can believe me that Disney is not going to be kidding around with this one before you see it on bluray.

I don't know what they did with Pete's Dragon when it was "restored" for dvd a couple years ago. Does anyone have the disc? I think there's a documentary. My guess is that they simply cleaned up the negative, but for Pete and Bedknobs & Broomsticks, they need to do the same thing as with Mary Poppins--they need to clean up the original elements for the process shots. I'm not sure if they still have the separate elements, or the deleted footage for Pete. (They most likely do, because Disney is usually quite good about saving things). Eastman fading? I thought all three of these films were shot in Technicolor?

B&B has another problem in that some of the deleted footage elements they used in the special edition don't quite match up to the surrounding film. The restored footage came from a variety of sources and shown together might look funny on bluray. That, and the fact that most of the ADR actors kinda sucked. You know it, I know it and believe it or not--Disney knows it too! I mean, Roddy McDowell and Angela Lansbury of course sounded fine re-recording their own stuff, but everyone else kinda screwed it up. And of course, there's also the dilemma of what to do about "Step in the Right Direction." For all they know they could put all the expense into restoring the film yet again and a year later somebody suddenly discovers the missing footage (Disney is pretty convinced it no longer exists, although unfounded rumors of at least a B&W workprint version floating around have persisted for years). Disney also hasn't yet decided whether to restore the complete longer version for blu or if they're just gonna do the shorter version, or offer them both on bluray. The restored longer version was done on the cheap by today's standards, and Disney is aware that for a proper bluray release, they're going to have to redo a lot of it. It's going to be one of the more costly films to restore, so we'll have to wait and see when they get around to it.

Pete and Bedknobs & Broomsticks aren't really on Disney's radar for blu at the present time. I'm guessing we'll see Mary before the other two. I'll ask my contact about them again one of these days.

My theory about the mono soundtrack for Whorehouse is that the original vhs came out in the early days of home video when stereo sound wasn't as crucial as it became. I'm pretty sure they've been using the same master for re-releases all these years (it looks like the same version). They really need to put some time and money into this one before blu, and track down those deleted numbers. Greg: oh no--I was referring to a brief bit from the shower sequence that never made it into any cut. It would be when they sing "And then we're gonna show them all a thing or two." Right then, three of the dancers turned and faced the camera, completely nude, and uh, showed 'em. In the existing (much safer) print, the camera instead cuts to the shower heads turning on (oh that sounded like a double entendre'). Of course, they knew they'd be getting into, uh, hot water with that footage, so it was shot in a few alternate ways. There is male frontal nudity in the existing cut (if you're really looking for it). As with Porky's, the filmmakers' intent was to be very bold and cutting edge and frank with male nudity, but it was all too over-the-top.

Hopefully, the next home video version will at least have the human pyramid and extra verse as deleted scenes. Did you see it in the tv cut? I don't think I've ever seen it. I've never even heard of "A Gamble Either Way," hopefully that footage still exists too. I guess it would have been in place of the play's "Girl You're a Woman." I always missed that song from the movie, but not nearly as much as I miss "24 Hours of Lovin'." They should have gotten Nell Carter to play the housekeeper and really gone to town with it. And Universal--remix it for stereo...okay??? :D
 

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Interesting stuff about Mary Poppins!

And I know it's not really a musical, because it only has maybe two songs, but I *love* Disney's epic and spectacular and dramatic 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea from 1954. And what a cast--James Mason, Kirk Douglas, and Peter Lorre. I think it's perhaps one of the top two science fiction films of the decade--just don't ask me what the other one is...Anyway, any chance of this one? Any word on 20,000?
 

Rick Thompson

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Concerning "Best Little Whorehouse," that film has always been a disappointment. It was turned into a Dolly Parton/Burt Reynolds vanity project, complete with "Mr. Fingernails on Blackboard" of any year, Dom DeLuise. The only good thing about it was Charles Durning's turn as the governor.
 

MatthewA

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The Movie of 'Tomorrow' said:
/forum/thread/310725/musicals-from-stage-film-to-blu-ray#post_3800744
Jack Nicholson was paid off not to play Daddy Warbucks.
I like Jack Nicholson but that sounds like a worthy expense. I just don't see him in the part. Interestingly, he was also supposed to have a larger part in On a Clear Day You Can See Forever, but that movie suffered huge cuts before release and almost all of Nicholson's role was among them. If you have a problem with John Huston directing the film, can you imagine him playing Daddy Warbucks? There's a good section on the film in a book called "The Hustons" that, among other things (here is where Ray Stark admits he thought the play was terrible; it is ironic how defensive he became over his version), says they seriously considered having him act in the film. That would have been miscasting to rival Lucy as Mame and Diana Ross as Dorothy.

It sounds like the production had a lot more trouble than what was reported at the time. There was already chattering about the budget (the whole film was reported to be between $35-40 million, [possibly including the $9.5 million for the rights, breaking the record held at the time when Warner Bros. bought the rights to My Fair Lady], about on a par with 1941, Apocalypse Now, and The Blues Brothers, but less than Superman, and right in the aftermath of Heaven's Gate, which totaled United Artists and along with it, justified the constant intervention of studio executives) and the idea of Huston at the helm (he wasn't universally panned once the film came out, though; on the whole I pretty much agree with what Vincent Canby had to say about the film in the New York Times—he liked it, with reservations, enough to get quoted on the DVD box—but I don't share his disdain for the play or his dismissal of the score). On top of that, the production designer, Dale Hennesy, died in the summer of 1981! A lot of this reminds me of what happened on the set of Rex Harrison's Doctor Dolittle (which Huston was asked to direct). That was supposed to be a mid-budget musical but one mishap after another tripled the budget. It almost seems quaint that we once considered $40 or $50 million to be a big-budget film. Even in the 1990s Forrest Gump only cost about $55 million. Today we're seeing nine-digit budgets on romantic comedies! I imagine the budget for Willow Smith's birthday present will make this film look like Clerks. Hollywood learned nothing from Cleopatra and Heaven's Gate.

I suppose we're lucky the film didn't turn out to be even worse! One interesting bit of irony about Disney's version is that when Michael Eisner co-ran Paramount, he tried to get the rights, and they got into a bidding war with Columbia; we all know who won. This is why he greenlit Popeye. Perhaps if Annie had ended up at Paramount it would have been directed by Robert Altman (and then Ethan would have even more to say about the overlapping dialogue) and starred Robin Williams as Daddy Warbucks! Keep in mind, this man almost shelved Grease.

In hindsight, perhaps the film's release should have been pushed back to the end of the year—when Columbia had Gandhi and Tootsie as its tentpole releases—so they could iron out the editing issues and not have to compete with an unusually strong summer lineup that consisted of E.T., Poltergeist, Star Trek II, The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, and others. Regardless of critics' or purists' objections, the film might have done better against weaker competition. Even so, its $57 million gross and ninth place finish for the year would have been pretty good were it not for the cost of the film. The video and television sales must have pushed it into the black by now, and it must sell enough to justify TV ad space when it was reissued on VHS to tie into the disastrous 1997 Broadway revival, as well as for that last DVD that should have been called nni.
 

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If you listen to The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas DVD with headphones, a lot of the music is true stereo with decent seperation. But a couple of numbers do sound pretty much like mono. The effects and dialogue are all mono however. Yes, Universal needs to work on the soundtrack for Bluray, and clean up that image.

I spoke to someone who was at the premiere, and they said it had pretty good 4-track stereo sound.
 

GMpasqua

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Originally Posted by RCinOttawa
If you listen to The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas DVD with headphones, a lot of the music is true stereo with decent seperation. But a couple of numbers do sound pretty much like mono. The effects and dialogue are all mono however. Yes, Universal needs to work on the soundtrack for Bluray, and clean up that image.

I spoke to someone who was at the premiere, and they said it had pretty good 4-track stereo sound.
I could barely detect stereo separation in the songsthat seem like they may be in stereo. But when compared with relly stereo, it still sounds like modified mono (making one channel slightly brighter in sound and the other a little duller)
 

RCinOttawa

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I just listened to the opening scene with headphones. Just after Jim Neighbours says "It was the nicest little whorehouse you ever saw..." I can clearly hear the harp on the right, the strings on the left, and piano (I think) and drums in the centre. And when the film title shows up on screen, the score is quite directional. But yes, certain songs sound like broad mono, especially "Texas Has a Whorehouse In It". You'd think an 80s musical would sound way better.

I wonder if we are listening to the same dvd edition. I mean, I know true stereo music when I hear it...
 

MatthewA

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As for all the stuff "I have read", I can remember almost every film I have seen but, sadly, I can't remember where I got most of the info I have posted.



Originally Posted by Ethan Riley

You are right about Mary Poppins: Disney has all the separate process shots and animation and the plan is to re-marry them before bluray release. They're gonna do it--it's just gonna take a little time, and since it's the Crown Jewel of Disney's live action films, it's got to be done right the first time. But that way you won't get translucent squirrels running around Bert's feet. Disney is well aware of these issues. And you can believe me--the film elements for Mary Poppins have been very well preserved. Whatever happens, you can believe me that Disney is not going to be kidding around with this one before you see it on bluray.

I don't know what they did with Pete's Dragon when it was "restored" for dvd a couple years ago. Does anyone have the disc? I think there's a documentary. My guess is that they simply cleaned up the negative, but for Pete and Bedknobs & Broomsticks, they need to do the same thing as with Mary Poppins--they need to clean up the original elements for the process shots. I'm not sure if they still have the separate elements, or the deleted footage for Pete. (They most likely do, because Disney is usually quite good about saving things). Eastman fading? I thought all three of these films were shot in Technicolor?

B&B has another problem in that some of the deleted footage elements they used in the special edition don't quite match up to the surrounding film. The restored footage came from a variety of sources and shown together might look funny on bluray. That, and the fact that most of the ADR actors kinda sucked. You know it, I know it and believe it or not--Disney knows it too! I mean, Roddy McDowell and Angela Lansbury of course sounded fine re-recording their own stuff, but everyone else kinda screwed it up. And of course, there's also the dilemma of what to do about "Step in the Right Direction." For all they know they could put all the expense into restoring the film yet again and a year later somebody suddenly discovers the missing footage (Disney is pretty convinced it no longer exists, although unfounded rumors of at least a B&W workprint version floating around have persisted for years). Disney also hasn't yet decided whether to restore the complete longer version for blu or if they're just gonna do the shorter version, or offer them both on bluray. The restored longer version was done on the cheap by today's standards, and Disney is aware that for a proper bluray release, they're going to have to redo a lot of it. It's going to be one of the more costly films to restore, so we'll have to wait and see when they get around to it.

Pete and Bedknobs & Broomsticks aren't really on Disney's radar for blu at the present time. I'm guessing we'll see Mary before the other two. I'll ask my contact about them again one of these days.

None of the three Disney hybrid musicals were shot in Technicolor (no film had been since 1955), but the animation was done in successive exposure. Poppins and Bedknobs had dye-transfer prints made by Technicolor when they came out (the process was discontinued in 1974, well before Pete's Dragon came out) and the dye-transfer printing should have covered up the generation loss due to the problems of dupe stock at the time. Unless they can make it cost-efficient I don't see them redoing the process shots on the latter two of the three because while they have sold well (and did better on video than they did in theaters), they still haven't been as profitable as Poppins. I wish they would, and while they're at it also re-do So Dear to My Heart, Three Caballeros, and yes, even Song of the South.

The Gold Collection DVD of Pete's Dragon looks and sounds better than any of the prior videos or the 1990s laserdisc. The sound is pretty good considering it was one of the first—and the studio's first—Dolby Stereo films. There was no documentary about the film on it. The new DVD has different extras (they tracked down Sean Marshall, who played Pete, to talk about the SFX) but the same transfer. The process shots are what they are, and before Who Framed Roger Rabbit and the age of CGI this was the best way to mix live action and animation. There are two shots that really need to be fixed digitally: some blue fringing when Paul is struggling to steer his ship against a raging storm, and the shot at the next-to-last scene where the Mayor bumps into the invisible Elliott where you can see the camera crew in the mirror. As for the cuts, the film we know now didn't get chopped up as badly as Bedknobs and Broomsticks or The Happiest Millionaire (many years ago I emailed Scott MacQueen, who ran the restoration department at the time, who confirmed rumors I heard that The One and Only Genuine Original Family Band met the same fate after Millionaire flopped; he couldn't say anything more about his work due to privacy issues), but you can sense that there were cuts made. The scene where Lampie finds Pete sleeping in the lighthouse has a horrible jump cut that I noticed even when I was six. If they still have stuff that was supposed to be there but the suits made them cut it (in the book "The Disney Studio Story", it says that Buena Vista tried to get Walt to cut 20 minutes from Mary Poppins, so it seems Walt was the only thing standing between his movies and an injudicious pair of scissors; once he was gone they were free to cut as they pleased), put it back. As long as we don't have to deal with the 105-minute European cut (used for the 1984 reissue) again. They need to act now if they want other cast members in supplements.

Disney did want to do a conventional restoration of Bedknobs and Broomsticks for its 25th Anniversary, but then Scott MacQueen found two of the three cut songs on the soundtrack album, did some homework, and persuaded them to reconstruct the longer cut. Most of what they found they could match to the rest of the film; a faded color workprint was the only source for a minute towards the end of the "Portobello Road" dance. They also found the music tracks to do a stereo mix (expanded soundtrack, anyone?), which I'm guessing they could improve upon today if it's nothing crazy (I don't want them to add a big ol' WHOOSH! across 7 speakers when Miss Price takes off).


I suppose they were rushing to meet a deadline with a limited budget. On the whole I was happy with the reconstruction of Bedknobs, but you are right that it is rough around the edges and the redubbing, Angela and Roddy aside, is just plain bad. It doesn't even sync up well! It's my favorite film and I could probably recite it from memory, and I could do a better Mr. Browne impression than the guy they hired; David Tomlinson was still alive but suffered from poor health in his final years and couldn't make it to Hollywood. Whoever redubbed Charlie must have gone through puberty during the recording sessions. The only one who comes close was Corey Burton, who did both the Bookman and Capt. Greer. And when they redubbed Mrs. Hobday (whose screen time increases exponentially, suggesting that the long-lost subplot, also mentioned in "The Disney Studio Story" along with vague descriptions of the cuts, that everyone assumed was about Roddy MacDowall was more about her meddling in Miss Price's love life), they even redubbed her lines that used to lead into "The Old Home Guard"—one of the most obvious of the 1971 edits: how could she and the children hear the guardsmen singing half a mile away inside the museum? (also, there's an extra verse on the soundtrack)—but now lead into the fight between Capt. Greer and Arthur Malet (yet another Poppins alumnus); I remember a network TV cut from the late 1980s where they cut that song completely but left in the lines, with Tessie O'Shea's voice intact and no music over it. They can and should do better.



And in two spots when they needed to add music, they can do better there as well. "Nobody's Problems For Me" is a lovely song but the orchestra sounds synthesized; there's no way these are Irwin Kostal arrangements. The song is nowhere in the underscore or the album, while "With a Flair" and "A Step in the Right Direction" are quoted constantly in the underscore, so it must have been the first to go. Hire a real orchestra and, if you must, get a hipster with some analog equipment he bought off Craigslist to record it so it sounds like an early 1970s recording.





When it was done, it got so little promotion. There was a laserdisc (I heard it was supposed to be an "Exclusive Archive Collection" edition, and the box was even designed that way, but they scrapped that because Eisner wouldn't pony up the dough; but it was still better than the early 1980s laserdisc [the first I ever owned, along with The Adventures of Milo and Otis ], with time compressed opening credits, a yellowish hue making everyone jaundiced, and analog sound; it was never remastered until the reconstruction came out]), and they even invited Angela Lansbury to host the film on The Disney Channel (right around the time it turned into the garish teenybopper nightmare it is now). The AMPAS screened it once, and there are at least two 35mm prints: one for copyright deposit that is now comfortably resting with the Library of Congress, and another that Disney keeps tight reins on (two repertory theaters I know of tried to get it, only one succeeded). But nothing else until the DVD came out.



There's something about the studio's "official" explanation of the reason for the cuts made back in 1971 that doesn't ring true to me. The US release was set for Christmas 1971, and they had a deal with Radio City Music Hall to show their films, and they cut it to just under 2 hours…to accommodate the Music Hall's Christmas Stage Show! Then again, Disney has been well-run for about 10-15% of the 45 years since Walt died. Based on what I have read about the "What Would Walt Do" era we're lucky any good movies came out of it. Their making arbitrary cuts for ridiculous reasons is plausible. It happens all the time at other studios.



I hope Disney does iron out the technical kinks in the 1996 reconstruction for the Blu-Ray. I can no longer watch the theatrical cut (I was surprised that Turner Classic Movies got that version), but if they feel the overwhelming need to include it, seamless branching is always there, Hollywood! Use it! Just for S's and G's, they can throw in the 97-minute 1979 re-issue version just so folks can see just how many times this film has been run through a Steenbeck. It's been 15 years, the technology has improved, and two "generations" (based on Walt's definition of every 7 years) of kids have been born who only know the long cut. I guess the film is basically Disney's Metropolis. If those rumors about "Right Direction" existing in B&W are true, I suppose it could be colorized by Legend Films or someone who can do it competently.

But as for when they actually come out? On DVD you would usually see Mary Poppins come out, then Pete's Dragon a few months later, then Bedknobs a month or two after that. We know Poppins won't be out before 2014 but I wonder whether they'll save Bedknobs and Dragon for their next multiple-of-five-anniversaries. You never can tell with mice.

Disney was better than most about saving extraneous stuff. MGM was pretty good about it but not infallible. It's everybody else who sucked at it (although some surprises do turn up).

Ethan, you certainly do get around Hollywood.

God, I love this thread, even when I disagree with some of the opinions expressed. Just the fact that in one post one can transition effortlessly from Mary Poppins to The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas makes it so much fun.
 

MatthewA

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Ethan Riley said:
They should have gotten Nell Carter to play the housekeeper and really gone to town with it.
Since you mentioned Nell Carter, there is a 1982 NBC-TV production of Ain't Misbehavin' with her and the rest of the original cast; she and Andre DeShields each won Emmies. I'd love to see it released (it was a Columbia TV production, so Sony owns it; maybe Shout! Factory should get ahold of it).
 

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Originally Posted by Ethan Riley



I always missed that song from the movie, but not nearly as much as I miss "24 Hours of Lovin'." They should have gotten Nell Carter to play the housekeeper and really gone to town with it.
I'm with you there. "24 Hours of Lovin'" is probably the best song in the show, and I would have loved to hear Nell rip into it. But I found the movie atrocious as it was. I've never understood or agreed with the slamming of the film version of Mame when I find Whorehouse to be MUCH worse, along with Camelot, Paint Your Wagon, Man of La Mancha,Song Of Norway and Annie. Don't get me wrong, I hope they all come out on spectacular blu rays for their respective fans, but ye gods the performances in them are dreadful. I don't find the same true of Mame at all (short of Ball's singing, although even that is more listenable than either Eastwood's or Marvin's in Paint Your Wagon.)
 

MatthewA

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Originally Posted by JohnMor /img/forum/go_quote.gif







I'm with you there. "24 Hours of Lovin'" is probably the best song in the show, and I would have loved to hear Nell rip into it. But I found the movie atrocious as it was. I've never understood or agreed with the slamming of the film version of Mame when I find Whorehouse to be MUCH worse, along with Camelot, Paint Your Wagon, Man of La Mancha,Song Of Norway and Annie. Don't get me wrong, I hope they all come out on spectacular blu rays for their respective fans, but ye gods the performances in them are dreadful. I don't find the same true of Mame at all (short of Ball's singing, although even that is more listenable than either Eastwood's or Marvin's in Paint Your Wagon.)



I have yet to find any love for Song of Norway anywhere. There's probably a reason for its absence on DVD compared to the others. Luckily for Florence Henderson she had that Brady Bunch thing to fall back on. That seems to be the only film of a musical (or rather an operetta) whose massive unpopularity brought the show down with it as well; it hasn't been revived on Broadway since its original production. Even A Chorus Line survived on Broadway for five more years after the movie was so poorly received. The others have survived on stage (through local and regional theater) independently of their respective films, but Paint Your Wagon wasn't that big a hit on Broadway to begin with.



I kind of have a love/hate relationship with Mame. Love the score (the film's version of the title song is marvelous and it makes me sad they couldn't do a stereo remix), not crazy about Lucy's singing or her performance overall, but she has her moments. Perhaps if she had consented to being dubbed and the DP had eased off the diffusion filters some of her harsher critics might have been a bit more magnanimous. I still think it should have been Angela Lansbury. I also wish they had kept George Cukor as director. The film's saving graces are the supporting cast members, particularly Bea Arthur, Robert Preston and Jane Connell. As for Kirby Furlong? He couldn't sing either and seemed like he was about to fall asleep much of the time; he must have been chosen for his resemblance to Bruce Davison. The one thing about both Mame and Auntie Mame (one of my all-time favorites, which will be on Blu-Ray no sooner than 2013) that always bugged me was the ending: Mame ruins Patrick and Gloria's engagement, then ten years later Patrick and his new wife are trusting their son to his Great Auntie Mame. No resolution, no make-up.



Dare I ask about any interest in the musical version of Lost Horizon? I finally found a copy of the laserdisc but haven't had the time to test my endurance.
 

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Originally Posted by MatthewA

I have yet to find any love for Song of Norway anywhere. There's probably a reason for its absence on DVD compared to the others. Luckily for Florence Henderson she had that Brady Bunch thing to fall back on. That seems to be the only film of a musical (or rather an operetta) whose massive unpopularity brought the show down with it as well; it hasn't been revived on Broadway since its original production. Even A Chorus Line survived on Broadway for five more years after the movie was so poorly received. The others have survived on stage (through local and regional theater) independently of their respective films, but Paint Your Wagon wasn't that big a hit on Broadway to begin with.

I kind of have a love/hate relationship with Mame. Love the score (the film's version of the title song is marvelous and it makes me sad they couldn't do a stereo remix), not crazy about Lucy's singing or her performance overall, but she has her moments. Perhaps if she had consented to being dubbed and the DP had eased off the diffusion filters some of her harsher critics might have been a bit more magnanimous. I still think it should have been Angela Lansbury. I also wish they had kept George Cukor as director. The film's saving graces are the supporting cast members, particularly Bea Arthur, Robert Preston and Jane Connell. As for Kirby Furlong? He couldn't sing either and seemed like he was about to fall asleep much of the time; he must have been chosen for his resemblance to Bruce Davison. The one thing about both Mame and Auntie Mame (one of my all-time favorites, which will be on Blu-Ray no sooner than 2013) that always bugged me was the ending: Mame ruins Patrick and Gloria's engagement, then ten years later Patrick and his new wife are trusting their son to his Great Auntie Mame. No resolution, no make-up.

Dare I ask about any interest in the musical version of Lost Horizon? I finally found a copy of the laserdisc but haven't had the time to test my endurance.
I've never seen Lost Horizon, but I kinda want to. But I kinda dread it also. LOL.

I thought Lucy's performance in Mame was quite good (funny and touching). Great supporting players, except for Davison (who's just okay in his essentially thankless role) and Furlong (although he's cute enough and I find him more tolerable than any of the kids in Annie). But of course it should have been Lansbury. As far as the ending, I never felt there's any resolution missing. I think Patrick ultimately realizes she saved him from joining that bigoted, narrow-minded family and permanently becoming a "beastly, Babbitt-y little snob." She had given him enough of a solid base that he gets his head screwed back on right pretty fast. Can't wait for Auntie Mame on blu. Love that film.
 

MatthewA

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Originally Posted by JohnMor
I've never seen Lost Horizon, but I kinda want to. But I kinda dread it also. LOL.

I thought Lucy's performance in Mame was quite good (funny and touching). Great supporting players, except for Davison (who's just okay in his essentially thankless role) and Furlong (although he's cute enough and I find him more tolerable than any of the kids in Annie). But of course it should have been Lansbury. As far as the ending, I never felt there's any resolution missing. I think Patrick ultimately realizes she saved him from joining that bigoted, narrow-minded family and permanently becoming a "beastly, Babbitt-y little snob." She had given him enough of a solid base that he gets his head screwed back on right pretty fast. Can't wait for Auntie Mame on blu. Love that film.
Davison is okay but the character of Patrick in the dramatized versions has never done much for me at any age. I have the two books and they're on my ever-growing "to read" list. Maybe Patrick is more interesting as a narrator.

Part of me wants to accept Lucy, knowing her physical limitations brought on by chain smoking and being 62. I guess it's for the same reason one roots for Lucy Ricardo to finally get into the show, in spite of everything Ricky said (even Desi Arnaz couldn't sugarcoat the critical fallout from the film). Perhaps the fact that it's been so long since I've seen the film—I picked the DVD up cheap but have not had time to watch it—and have read what everyone else said about her performance and had nothing to counter it with. I remember renting it when I was 13, expecting a bomb (this was a period in which I deliberately sought out movies I heard were legendarily bad hoping to find a diamond in the rough), but enjoying a lot of it. I even taped the widescreen version off of AMC back in the day.

Kirby Furlong actually looks very much like a boy who grew up across the street from me!

One thing I have been unable to find is accurate box office info on Mame (most sites don't have comprehensive pre-1980 info); some refer to it as a "bomb" referring to its critical response, but no hard figures have turned up. IMDb claims a budget of about $12 million, more than average but less than the late 1960s Roadshows.
 

MatthewA

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Originally Posted by graham8z
Would love to see At Long last Love and The Boy Friend make a showing. Saw ALLL on TV must be 30yrs ago and The Boy Friend is fantastic - one day perhaps.
The Warner Archive has only now released The Boy Friend on DVD.

At Long Last Love is so despised Peter Bogdanovich was forced to apologize for it. It never got a VHS, Laserdisc or DVD. Even Lost Horizon got a laserdisc thanks to Joe Caporiccio and Pioneer. It will probably come to Blu-Ray the same day the Winter Olympics are held in Hell. Now that's one I'd like to see just to see if it lives up to its reputation.
 

Matt Hough

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Lost Horizon is for me as awful as its reputation insists it is. Of course, I'm operating on a many decades old memory as I saw it once in the theater during its initial release, and that's it. Never again on TV, VHS, laserdisc, or cable (and I don't see it turning up on cable ever). Same for At Long Last Love and Song of Norway. Are these EVER shown anywhere any more? (I did make a videotape of At Long Last Love decades ago because, as bad as it is, I do admire that Bogdanovich had his actors sing ALL the verses of the various Cole Porter gems. The singing may be compromised due to bad casting and live singing, but at least the songs are intact.
 

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That LOST HORIZON would be a turkey was determined the minute they hired Burt Bacharach and Hal David to write the score for it. Bacharach might have been able to pull it off with a different lyric writer (his tune for "Where There's a Heartache" in BUTCH CASSIDY would have fit beautifully), but something like "Lost Horizon" is far beyond Hal David. As it is we got stuff like " 'Cause your reflection reflects/On ev'rything you do/And ev'ry thing you do/Reflects on you." Oy!
 

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Originally Posted by MattH.
Lost Horizon is for me as awful as its reputation insists it is. Of course, I'm operating on a many decades old memory as I saw it once in the theater during its initial release, and that's it. Never again on TV, VHS, laserdisc, or cable (and I don't see it turning up on cable ever). Same for At Long Last Love and Song of Norway. Are these EVER shown anywhere any more? (I did make a videotape of At Long Last Love decades ago because, as bad as it is, I do admire that Bogdanovich had his actors sing ALL the verses of the various Cole Porter gems. The singing may be compromised due to bad casting and live singing, but at least the songs are intact.
Still have LOST HORIZON on laser and it is the extended Roadshow Version with about an extra 16 minutes. As you watch it, it is like a deer caught in headlights, you can't turn away from it. But it is an interesting film with all the none singing trying to get that tune out. Bobby Van is the only real singer in the bunch and the songs he sings are full of fluff. I mean come on "Answer Me A Question," but his dancing is as great as usual. I don't see this coming out on DVD in these economic times. I have not seen AT LONG LAST LOVE, since it's original release so many years ago and the main point I remember is Mildred Natwick shined above the rest of the cast. I think I still have an LP of the soundtrack for this film, I will have to dig around and check. LOVE might be a good title for Twilight Time. I have never seen SONG OF NORWAY, but I have an interest in doing so, since it is considered one of the last two or three, if not the last Roadshow release.
 

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