MLB All-Star selections and game (1 Viewer)

[Philip Hamm]

What does it matter anyway. The American League doesn't even play Baseball. They play some baseball-like game that doesn't really count.

 

[Bill Slack]

Stealing a base doesn't make a single into a double, etc.

A double is will a man on 1st will produce a run. A single will and a steal will likely give you 2nd and 3rd. That's a pretty big difference. Caught stealing is a negative impact. For steals to have a positive impact you must steal at around 68% success rate. Anything above this quickly acends into productivity for a team. So Jeter is at 95% so that's a significant bonus, but should NOT be added to his slugging (!!!) his steals are already increasing his runs scored, and his speed in general already increase his batting average.

Great speed doesn't cause significantly more errors, so don't bother going there (there was a reason Sabermetrics-style article on espn all about this, if you're interested)

So far this year, I'd rate the four non-Arods about even. In terms of defense, I'd consider Jeter steadier on typical plays, but Nomar has a better arm. I don't watch Tejada enough to judge his defense, Arods is quite good, but not quite the range of any of the others. Vizqel is little overrated defensively (though still incredibly good, he's no Ozzie out there, and has a weak arm.)

So which one should be left off? Well... None of them. If Vizquel gets elected to the HOF (outside chance), and the rest continue on the track they are on, they'll all be in the Hall. We're talking about what could easily be five of the top ten SS of all time.

Oh, and Jeter is better because he WINS? That's a pretty silly statement. I guess that's Bob Brenly's mentality though picking Damian Miller and Luis Gonzalez over Paul Loduca and Larry Walker.

Yeah, the Yankees have had great teams. Yeah, they spent a lot of money, so did lots of other clubs, my beloved Red Sox included, at times. But that doesn't make their individual player performances superior. More than any other sport, baseball is about individual performance. Go read about win shares and whatnot, and it'll all make sense.

So, those are my ramblings on the subject.

P.S. Yay Damon. Perhaps some other folks were a little more deserving, but I still voted my 25 times. :b

 

[Bill Slack]

BTW...
Jeter's postseason stats are worse than his regular season stats (they're still good):
[stat/regular/post]
AVG- .320 v .304
OBP- .391 v .377
SLG- .468 v .448
OPS- .859 v .825
SB%- 80% v 78%
SB*- 24 v 29
HR*- 18 v 19
F%- .974 v .982
* per 162 games
http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/baseball...layer_7758.htm
So, he doesn't just come out for the postseason. It just seems that way, because he has 10x the oppurtunity of most others, as he plays on one of the greatest teams of all time.

 

[Ralph Summa]

Seth,
Thank you for being a Yankee fan who doesn't just spout off based on emotion and opinion (and the New York Post). BTW, I never have nor never will read the Boston Herald. But you guys can't keep harping on this Ramirez thing. Nomar played only 21 games last year and he and Manny haven't even played 40 together this year. Since Mo Vaughn left, Nomar has been an island in a sea of weak hitters. Again, Daubach, Valentin, Troy O'leary. Not exactly murderer's row. The Red Sox line-ups over the last 6 or 7 years are not even close to what the Yankees have had. Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neil, Jason Giambi and Robin Ventura just to name a few. That's a testament to the Yankees organization. I wish to God the Sox had that kind of backing. Maybe now they are a little bit closer.
You are right, Jeter does score a lot of runs. The Yankees also lead the majors in HRs, further emphasizing my point that he benefits from the guys behind him. I argue that Nomar has been a #3 hitter only because of the (lack of)abilities of his surrounding teammates. Yet he still hits for a high average. I would love to see Nomar in the # 2 slot with two high caliber hitters behind him.
I feel you have to look at stolen bases in a subjective manner (like certain fielding statistics). Again, I have to give more "props" to the Yankee organization. (WHAT AM I SAYING!) They have an aggressive manager who loves to dictate the game. Secondly, with the hitters they have, Jeter is more frequently in a better position to run. The Red Sox teams that Nomar has played on are fundamentally retarded. They never run, sacrifice or attempt to advance runners. If I had a dime for each time a Sox hitter grounds to third with a man on second and less than two outs, I'd be rich!
Is still think that when it all comes down. I want Nomar on my team before Jeter.
Seth, I too love the Sox/Yanks rivalry and debate. I am the fifth of five kids and the only one who wasn't born in Westbury, Long Island. I've been taking my lumps since I can remember.
I also am glad to see Johnny Damon go to the all-star game although I think Thome was more deserving. I did vote for Thome in case anyone wondered.
Ralph
P.S. No more teams, astroturf, indoor stadiums or pitchers winning the MVP.

 

[Mike__D]

Absolutely agreed. However, I can still be happy that two Phils will be starting.

That's about the only thing Philly fans can look forward too. Personally, I'm looking forward to the Eagles training camp to start (not saying much for our poor Phills)

 

[John Spencer]

Well, I'm just glad that Sweeney was picked for the team. Being a Royals fan, I've been in an emotional freefall since 1985. You guys remember 1985, right? That's the year we hoodwinked our way into a World Series title.
But, being the lifelong fan, I truly hope that Pena can turn the team into a contender, and help stop the stupid machinations by upper management, who never fail to excise the talent from the team in the name of the dollar. We'll see.

 

[Dennis]

Seth, I agree with your post almost down to the word.

I was a Mattingly fan, which pretty much says that I've been a fan since forever. I also agree with your views on Clemens, I never liked him, he will always be a member of the Red Sox in my eyes.

As far as the All Star game, I think the Ventura shouldn't have been picked over Chavez. I have to admit to voting for Ventura for the 3rd base spot a few times along with Chavez because I thought he deserved some votes. I think Magglio Ordonez shouldn't have been left to be among a list of players picked for the 30th man. I understand that Torre has to pick from every team so some people will be left off no matter what.

I think that Tejada should be on the team along with Garciaparra. Torre knows that Jeter is as good, in a different way, as those players so he couldn't see himself not taking Jeter which then means he has to take Visquel.

Look at it this way, Rafael Palmiero is on his way to the Hall Of Fame, and he gets snubbed almost every year.

 

[Jason Seaver]

I never liked him, he will always be a member of the Red Sox in my eyes.

The funny thing is, the "Texas Con Man" is loathed in New England; I don't know if he's got any fans left, anywhere. (Bill Simmons wrote a pretty good column on this as one of his first ESPN pieces) Weird phenomenon; I'm trying to think of another professional athlete as talented as him who has so thoroughly burned his bridges.

 

[jeff lam]

What are you guys pulling out all the worthless stats for (well, not completely worthless but when judging on personal achievements), the only stats that really matter are the ones used in calculating the tripple crown, why the heck do you think they have a tripple crown? Use those stats, then judge who is having the better year.

 

[John Spencer]

I don't know if he's got any fans left, anywhere.

Rob Dibble, who apparently finds it impressive when a pitcher isn't afraid to put a little mustard on their beanballs.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Seth,
Those were some excellent posts without the emotional baggage attached to them.




Crawaddy

 

[Ralph Summa]

I was given a baseball autographed by Clemens back in 1989. It was one of my most prized possessions. Now it's in the back of my bottom dresser drawer.
As much as Clemens is loathed here in New England, in his defense, Dan Duquette said Clemens was past his prime and did little to keep him in Boston. I saw him pitch in a Blue Jays uniform when he first returned to Fenway. There were more cheers than jeers for him. I was also at the Pedro vs. Clemens playoff game in 1999 where he was booed and hounded insessantly during his three innings of work. It's all about the Yankees.

 

[Bill Slack]

Jeff:
You're trolling, right?

 

[Seth Paxton]

Let me add that I LOVE baseball, not just the Yanks, although they are my favorite of professional teams. I would prefer they not do the stupid "buy every player" thing, though they are far from the only team.
In fact I found it immensely rewarding when the Expos picked up Colon. It says to me "see, ANY team in the hunt looks to get better for the stretch run". Those Expos look good right now.
Twins/Expos for the WS, wouldn't that be a hoot.
Back to the thread at hand, Chavez robbed, what about Hinske. Go check the numbers and come back to defend Chavez. Ventura has no biz being there, but I can still see Chavez passed over at this point.
How many All-Star games has Pedro skipped now? Seems like at least 3, but maybe I don't remember correctly. Still it worked out for Urbina. That always seems to happen. Now if only Mike Williams would take a pass so Giles could join the game.
I freaking LOVE the MLB All-Star game, truly a classic every year. My favorite moment - Dave Parker throwing a guy out at home and at third. Wasn't that 1979? That is a cool way to get the MVP I think.

 

[Tim Markley]

Back to the thread at hand, Chavez robbed, what about Hinske. Go check the numbers and come back to defend Chavez. Ventura has no biz being there, but I can still see Chavez passed over at this point.

Hmmm, maybe you need to check the numbers again.

Chavez: 20 HR 58 RBI .280 AVG .353 OBP .561 SLG
Hinske: 14 HR 45 RBI .281 AVG .372 OBP .522 SLG

I don't see anything to back up your argument.

One player that no one has said anything about is John Smoltz. He's got an ERA of 4.63!!!!! I like Smoltz but I don't think there's any place in the All Star game for an ERA like that. Robb Nen would've been a much better pick and should've made it before B.H. Kim also.

I think one of the biggest problems with the All Star game is the requirement that each team be represented. If they got rid of that rule, it would definitely help.

 

[Dennis]

Thanks Tim, you saved me from posting the stats.

Also, I want to clarify what I said in my previous post.
I meant that Magglio Ordoñez shouldn't have been left among the 5 players for the 30th spot because he should have been on the team.

Still, Torre's picks made more sense than Brenly's, but this might be his only chance to manage an All Star team so I would cut him slack.

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

Smoltz didn't have a good start to the season, but he settled down and his ERA during the month of June was 1.35.

 

[Seth Paxton]

but should NOT be added to his slugging (!!!) his steals are already increasing his runs scored

My point was that for a lead-off/setup type of batter the SB DOES affect his effective slugging or final total bases.
You are right, the SB does end up showing up as runs scored, but you know what, the lack of true slugging also shows up in lower RBIs for him, so don't act like somehow evaluating a leadoff hitter this way in an affront to god.
Jeter loses the RBI on a 1B that ends up 2B and 3B, doesn't he?
But if you want a guy to get himself in scoring position when no one else is on then a guy who can turn a 1B into a 2B, or better yet a BB into a 2B, then a base stealer does have an improved "effective" slugging. That was my point, evaluating Jeter for what he actually brings based upon what is required of his batting position.
Not only that, but you neglected a few other aspects that brings to the game. First you eliminate the double play, which is a HUGE factor with a slower 3 or 4 batting next. Second, when you are an effective base stealer you disrupt what the pitcher is trying to do. Everyone has always praised Ricky Henderson for this aspect, for example. Third, you eliminate the need for a wasted AB on a sacrifice bunt to gain that base.
But most important, a good base stealer can give you a run scored without a hit. BB, SB, sacrifice, sacrifice. It happens all the time. (Phil Hamm should appreciate that NL baseball method )
You can never have a slugging PCT high enough to score a run without an actual hit (discounting errors).
Jeter has the potential to hit 30 HR. He is certainly at a rate to get 30 SB. It's a diminished stat in the live ball era, but 30/30 still ain't too shabby.
Hard to believe anyone would think that a 30/30 type doesn't belong on the All-Star team.
One other thing, as far as SB guys go, how does Jeter compare:
Soriano 23/6
Suzuki 22/8
Lofton 21/6
Damon 20/4
Durham 19/3
Jeter 19/1
In fact in all of MLB he has the best rate of any guy with 13 or more attempts. At 12/0 Knoblauch is the closest guy with a better rate.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Chavez: 20 HR 58 RBI .280 AVG .353 OBP .561 SLG
Hinske: 14 HR 45 RBI .281 AVG .372 OBP .522 SLG

As if these are the stats that Torre looked at on the afternoon of June 30th when picking the team.

How about these instead.

Chavez 46 R, 20 HR, 57 RBI, .274 AVG, .348 OBP, .563 SLG, .911 OPS

Hinske 47 R, 14 HR, 44 RBI, .294 AVG, .386 OBP, .545 SLG, .931 OPS.

Those were the stats when the team was actually picked. Chavez plays for the guy that basically came up with OPS, it's an A's philosophy. Hinske at the time was 20 points higher in both AVR and OPS. I'd call that significant.

Of course being behind in HR and RBI is a big deal too, but it just seems to me that lately one of the biggest factors people evaluate hitters on is the OPS.

As far as RBIs go, let's be fair here. Hinske bats 2nd, Chavez bats 5th (both for more than half their games played).


BTW, Mike, I know you are a big A's fan (and have little love for the Yanks), but I'm not trying to knock Chavez here. The main point is that Ventura was so far back in line at the 3B spot that it's rather embarrassing that he is on the team. Just like Stanton over Nelson last year, among others.

Torre picks a good team, but then he takes that 1 extra guy that doesn't belong and spoils it.

But I still think Brenley was a much bigger "homer" this year. Funny to note that 2 of the higher bonuses of 50K went to Luis G and Damian Miller. Ventura got 25K.

 

[Seth Paxton]

The funny thing is, the "Texas Con Man" is loathed in New England; I don't know if he's got any fans left, anywhere.

Yeah, you know how popular he was in Houston after he dissed his "hometown" team a few years ago. People down there were pretty ticked off with the way he dicked them around on coming to the Astros.
If you'll recall he basically got his trade to the Yanks instead of the Astros by talking crazy numbers on a required contract renegotiation. HE put the Astros out of the running financially, even though they could handle his current contract.
I hate that he has a WS ring, even more so when you look at the 1996/1998 teams (the true Yankee champs IMO). His first year was WORSE than Wells had in Toronto, but he still got his WS ring. Yeah, thanks for all you added Roger.