What's new

lew crippen / george kaplan mini-challenge (1 Viewer)

Angelo.M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2002
Messages
4,007
I am merely curious why these anime characters don't look very asian.
I believe the issue surrounding this is complex. As an anime fan and as someone also sensitive to these issues (my 3 year old daughter is Korean), I've looked into it a bit, and have found a lot of contradictory information.

I've come to understand it as a stylistic conceit. I'm told by some that having a more "Western-shaped eye" (that is, lacking the epicanthal fold) is desirable to some Japanese, to the point where some have sought cosmetic surgery to achieve the look. This is also reflected in a lot of Japanese advertising I've seen, featuring models that appear to be half-Asian, with eyes that have much more subtle folds.

Relating this back to anime, it's always been fascinating to me that certain anime characters are drawn with Asian features and others are not, often within the same film.

Watching Gatchaman ("Battle of the Planets") as a kid, I never thought of the characters as Asian, although my Asian friends certainly seemed to. When I watch it now, which is rare, I don't think of this at all.

My daughter isn't quite old enough to appreciate these differences, but I'm looking forward to some interesting discussions in the years to come. She loves My Neighbor Totoro, by the way.
 

george kaplan

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2001
Messages
13,063
Ordet

Although this film should probably have just as lively a discussion as Spirited Away, given it's rather controversial subject matter, I doubt it will, as I suspect a lot fewer people have seen it.

This film falls for me, as a film, into the very well done category with nothing negative to say, except the fact that I won't be watching it again. Except for the fact that it doesn't have repeatability for me, I can't think of anything bad about the film.

It's not that the film doesn't raise some interesting issues. It does. And frankly, I would very much look forward to a discussion of these issues somewhere with Lew, Brook and others, where we could fully discuss it without worrying about violating HTF rules.

But while I would truly enjoy discussing the film and debating the religious issues risen, I can't say I'd enjoy watching the film again. Unlike many other films, it wouldn't be an unpleasant experience (neither would Spirited Away), it just wouldn't be something I would seek to do.

Obviously this film raises profound issues, but while I think I might get something out of discussing the film, I don't think I'd get anything out of watching it again. So, that's not a condemnation of the film, only my own personal interaction with the film.

Among the interesting ideas raised in the film are, of course, the different interpretations of Christ, and how each one is somehow the one and only correct one, and although not addressed in the film per se, the idea extends to similar thoughts about the differences in religions.

It is also very interesting to contemplate about the return of Jesus, and to ask, how would he be received if he showed up at your door tonight, and what if anything could he do to convince you he really was Christ and not just a whack job? Would he have to let someone close to you die and then bring them back to life?

I don't know if we can really discuss any of the themes of this movie, but I do have one question for Lew (and others). Even though this film didn't quite make it for me, I have some hope that another Dreyer film might. Any other good candidates, given my taste, or was this the best shot at my liking a Dreyer film (in the sense of wanting to buy it and rewatch it)?
 

Brook K

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2000
Messages
9,467
I don't have time to discuss Ordet right now, but can later. It's a "one of the greatest of all time" category for me, and I know it is for Lew as well. It speaks to some of the very deepest questions that man can ask of himself.

As for others, I'm sure you wouldn't like Gertrud at all. I doubt you would care for Vampyr. The Passion of Joan of Arc I'm not so sure about. It's one of the most riveting and beautiful of film stories with Dreyer creating a technical marvel by fusing all the then current film techniques and theories (montage, realism, surrealism, expressionism) and the Robert Einhorn "Voices of Light" score is icing on the cake but I really don't know if you'd go for it or not.

The one I think you might have the greatest chance of liking is Day Of Wrath which centers around the repercussions that occur in a family and the surrounding community when a son falls in love with his father's much younger bride. The father is a respected priest and the son is training to follow in his footsteps so we have themes about familial relationships, religion, and a somewhat Salem-esque suspiscion and superstition angle, given the films 17th or 18th century Danish setting.
 

Lew Crippen

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 19, 2002
Messages
12,060
Wow, you are smokin’ George. I’ve had a series of issues getting some more seen, not the least of which are the current baseball playoffs. Plus my Sunday afternoons are being given over a bit to football (too early in the season to worry about hockey yet—and basketball is a ways off—even if any of the games this year counted).

Plus I just got a new subwoofer and am playing with that.

But back to the subject at hand. I actually think that we can discuss the film and its theme without violating forum rules. The only persons who have contributed to this thread are all able to discuss controversial topics reasonably, so I expect that as long as we keep to the film, what Dreyer intended (or our view of that) and how well we think this was achieved, we will be OK.

I’ll post more about this film later, as I have some views.

Interesting the discussion on Spirited Away where I felt very junior in the discussion even though I chose the film. It was obvious to me that most posters had seen this more often and given it more thought than I.

As for Dreyer recommendations, I am hard pressed to think of one that would really strike your fancy. If you have not seen The Passion of Joan of Arc it is widely considered one of the greatest silent films and certainly has the best performance by any actor in a silent film (some would claim ever).

Here too, of course, the focus is on religion.

You might also try Day of Wrath, dealing with faith, betrayal, moral certitude, and passion.
 

Rob Tomlin

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2000
Messages
4,506
I have been meaning to see Ordet for some time, and will try to make it a priority.

George, I think you should give The Passion of Joan of Arc a try. It is truly a great movie, with one of the best acting performances ever put on film.
 

george kaplan

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2001
Messages
13,063
Well actually, via other challenges, I already have most of these on my to watch list.

Well with no Angels or Dodgers I have no interest in baseball this year, and after USC tanked, and no professional team in LA, I have no current football interest either. Here's waiting for the Lakers. :)

I was also pretty fortunate. I put 3 of your recs at the top of my Greencine list and they all were in stock and came quickly. I had already recorded Throne of Blood off of TCM with my tivo, and have actually already recorded All That Heaven Allows, though I haven't yet watched it.
 

Edwin-S

Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2000
Messages
10,000
Sorry. I popped into this thread and noticed the discussion on "SPIRITED AWAY". I have noticed that you have moved on to another movie; however, I haven't seen that particular film.

Regarding the "big eye" look in anime. The "westernized big eye" look can trace a lot of its roots back to Osamu Tezuka's art. Tezuka is considered the founder of the modern Manga(Japanese comics). He also was the main driving force in the creation of the Japanese animation industry. Tezuka used big, western style eyes in his manga and animation projects, because he was heavily influenced by the Disney animation that he watched. The "round eye" look is one of the techniques that he borrowed. A whole generation of japanese kids grew up with Tezuka's style, and a lot of these kids ended up working in the animation industry. The "round eye" look in Japanese anime is a result of Tezukas massive influence. After all, he isn't called the "god of Manga" in Japan for nothing.

Another reason for "big eyes" is the ease with which they allow emotional expression to be achieved. Frame rates, like you pointed out in your earlier discussion, are a lot lower than Disney productions. Japanese animators are forced to find other means to create emotional expression because, unlike Disney animation, very little Japanese animation has full facial animation. Expressive eyes are one way Japanese animators would get around the lack of facial movement.

Even the worst Disney theatrical feature is about a mile ahead of Japanese animation from a purely technical standpoint.

I noted some of the problems you had with the "inexplicable" shifts that took place in the characters moods. It is apparent from your comments that anime is something that you watch only very occasionally. If you did watch a lot of the stuff you would be less confused by the apparent jumps and twitches in characters and stories. A lot of Japanese anime is made for an audience that is already aware of an existing backstory. As a result, the animations tend to leave a lot of explanatory material persona non grata, because the makers are counting on the viewers being aware of the entire story before viewers hit the theater. A lot of Japanese animated films and series end up being very choppy narratively because the makers rely too much on an audience having prior story knowledge. Believe me, I have seen Japanese animes that make "SPIRITED AWAY" look like a study in logic.


A quick note on another film referred to by another poster.

Deckard was a replicant

Except that he wasn't. I cannot figure out how anyone can actually think thatDeckard was a replicant
from watching that movie. The whole idea is stupid, because ifhe was a replicant
then the whole point of the story is lost and the movie becomes essentially meaningless.

Ridley Scott was an idiot for ever suggesting that Deckard was a replicant. He damaged a great story about what it means to be human, with his lame comment.

Sorry about going O/T.
 

george kaplan

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2001
Messages
13,063
Edwin,

Thanks for the info. There's only 10 movies in this whole mini-challenge, so everyone should feel free to discuss any of them that we've watched so far.

What year did Tezuka start doing this?
 

Simon_Lepine

Supporting Actor
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
601
George, I'm not sure you would like it because we have very different tastes, but you should give Passion of Jeanne d'Arc a try, I think it's a must see, whether you'll like it or not. Dreyer was so ahead of its time with the use of close-ups, and its a very moving experience. Day of Wrath is pretty good too, but not a landmark like Jeanne D'arc is.

Regarding Ordet, I don't have time to discuss much, but a couple of points of interest for me. Bear with me if my english is a little rough around the edges, it's hard to discuss some subjects in a second language ....

It's interesting to note that the only person with true faith is the kid. Is it that it's harder to keep faith as we grow up, see more of the world around us lose our innocence?

Another interesting point is that while the 2 parents are debating over their respective religion, they are doing that more in a ideological point of view, it has little to do with faith. In fact the father has his son acting like Jesus and doesn't notice it, he has no faith in the Word actually. No one except the kid really has faith Johannes until total they reach total despair.
 

Jim_K

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2000
Messages
10,087
Re: Spirited Away :star: :star: :star: :star:

definitely one of Miyazaki's best. It is a bit discouraging to read that people in this thread watched this dubbed that is unless you're watching with a small child. The dialog is very often different, not to mention the voice acting on Dubs usually has a very poor Saturday morning kiddie cartoon feel.

I see no difference between watching a live action film & Animation. Would you watch Kwaidan, Dreams, Ran, Crouching Tiger, etc. dubbed so you could pay closer attention to the amazing visuals?

yikes! :frowning:

But thats just me so as not to start a heated sub/dub debate (if this were an Anime thread the war drums would be pounding), to each his own.

Re: Hopscotch :star: :star: 1/2
I certainly didn't get as much out of this as Lew did. I found it rather bland as a comedy & very uneven as a film.

Re: Dreyer
Haven't seen Ordet but anyone who thinks of themself as a serious film buff should check out The Passion of Joan of Arc. I'm not as high about it as others are but it is a fine film with a wonderful silent performance so I'm glad I watched it.

The only other Dreyer film I've watched was Vampyr which aside from the inspired coffin procession scene really is forgettable.
 

Edwin-S

Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2000
Messages
10,000


I couldn't remember offhand, so I looked it up. His earliest work is from early 1946. He was seventeen when he drew a short series called Diary of Ma-Chan. There are some examples from the story on the site. The characters eyes are 1930s Mickey Mouse style "button" eyes. If you are interested, check this example.



It is quite obvious from the example that he was being influenced by 1930s newspaper comic strip art such as Floyd Gottfredson's Mickey Mouse strips, among others. You can see that he was already using a "round eye" style and that the eyes are fairly prominent and expressive. Although there is a heavy western influence in his art, it is very apparent that he had his own very distinctive style even in this early strip.

Another example:



This series was called New Treasure Island and I believe that it was one of his first big Manga successes. The Disney influence is apparent here also; however, there seems to be other influences too. The dog for example reminds me of Fleicher's early Betty Boop Cartoons, and the picture of Barron reminds me of another style, possibly Alex Raymond of Flash Gordon fame: highly simplified though.

In his later years he wrote and drew a manga series called "Adolph". A fictional story that follows the lives of three men named Adolph and how their lives intertwine. One of the men happens to be Adolph Hitler. The story is excellent but the art, at the beginning, is a little off-putting, because Tezuka never lost his highly cartooned style. The seriousness of the story clashes a bit with his cartoon style, but once you get past it the story is one of the best I have seen in a comic format. I would put this story just behind Art Spiegelman's MAUS.

This is probably way more than you wanted to know, but I highly respect the man and would like to raise awareness of his work. It should be seen by a wider audience. If you ever have the opportunity check out Adolph.

Had to add this. This manga called Princess Knight is probably the biggest single influence for why women in anime are drawn with such large expressive eyes.



Check this site if you have any further interest.

http://en-f.tezuka.co.jp/

edit: corrected spelling of Gottfredson
edit: added a link and some copy. This Tezuka site is fantastic. Looking at some this material makes me wish that I could read Japanese. The site itself has an english option. Very well constructed site too. At least to me.
 

Brook K

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2000
Messages
9,467
Certainly one of Dreyer's messages (also present in Day of Wrath and Passion of Joan of Arc) is that people become more interested and beholden to religious dogma than to simple faith as espoused in the Bible.

The points you highlight are illustrations of Biblical quotations (paraphrased) that "one should seek to have the faith of a child" and "if you truly believe, you may say to a mountain "move here" and it will be so".

When I have more time I'll try to dig up some previous reviews and discussions of Ordet from this board.
 

Rob Tomlin

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2000
Messages
4,506
Would you watch Kwaidan, Dreams, Ran, Crouching Tiger, etc. dubbed so you could pay closer attention to the amazing visuals?
I wouldn't. But, this is the exact reason given by many that do watch dubbed versions, and I do think it is a valid reason.

There are times when watching a subtitled movie that I get a little frustrated at not being able to concentrate more on the visuals. This applies in spades to Kurosawa, so it is appropriate that you mention Dreams and Ran as examples.

But, I wouldn't trade one for the other...i.e. being able to concentrate on the visuals at the cost of losing the real acting with the actors own voice (not to mention the distraction of lips not synching with what is being said).
 

Dome Vongvises

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 13, 2001
Messages
8,172
I chalk this one up to dumb luck, but I have no problem watching subtitled films. I can catch both text and visuals fairly easily. I guess there's one positive from being part of the MTV generation. You're just trained to consume mass amounts of info in a short time. Of course, that doesn't necessarily imply proper analysis. :)
 

SteveGon

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2000
Messages
12,250
Real Name
Steve Gonzales
definitely one of Miyazaki's best. It is a bit discouraging to read that people in this thread watched this dubbed that is unless you're watching with a small child. The dialog is very often different, not to mention the voice acting on Dubs usually has a very poor Saturday morning kiddie cartoon feel.
I agree. I should stress that the first time I saw SA was on DVD. I did try watching the subtitled version, but it proved too distracting trying to take in the visuals AND make out the subs at the same time. I don't normally have a problem with this - I have and enjoy the four examples you gave - but as I said, the font used for the subs is a bit thin and tends to get lost in the detailed artwork. Anyway, now that I'm familiar with the story, I can use the subs on subsequent viewings. :)
 

george kaplan

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2001
Messages
13,063
One interesting (at least to me :)) thought occured to me about Ordet. The battling orthodoxies in the film (I don't know which sects these were or what their differences really were) kind of remind me of some of us around here when it comes to film aesthetics. We all call ourselves film buffs, but often doubt that the others really are. After all, how could a true film buff dismiss film X and hold up film Y as being great? Is it important that a film be 'enjoyable' or should films never be enjoyable on the surface, but instead confront deep issues, that thinking about later will actually lead to true happiness?

And sometimes we seem to argue about this stuff with the same zeal as the men in Ordet, even if we are not arguing about something as important as they are.

Still, I'd let me son marry Lew's daughter (assuming he had one and they fell in love). Now Brook's daughter, that would be a different thing... :)
 

Brook K

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2000
Messages
9,467
Is it important that a film be 'enjoyable' or should films never be enjoyable on the surface, but instead confront deep issues, that thinking about later will actually lead to true happiness?
You may not believe me, but none of those things are mutually exclusive and I enjoy films in all those categories.


My daughter isn't allowed to date. She also will not grow older than 7.
 

george kaplan

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2001
Messages
13,063
Actually Brook, I don't think any of us are anywhere near as rigid as the men in the film, it's just that we argue even more voriciferouly. My son is only 3, and he can marry whoever he wants when he grows up, I only pray it isn't someone at the extreme opposite end of the political spectrum as me - I'd hate to feel like the Kennedy's watching what's happened to Maria. :)
 

Dome Vongvises

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 13, 2001
Messages
8,172
You may not believe me, but none of those things are mutually exclusive and I enjoy films in all those categories.
Personally, if I can't enjoy a film at its most superficial level, I could give two shits to analysis that could make it better. And I make no apologies for that either.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,814
Messages
5,123,685
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top