lew crippen / george kaplan mini-challenge (2 Viewers)

[Lew Crippen]

It is interesting that this film has caused such lengthy discussion. I really know nothing about anime and especially what distinguishes it from Western animation, and as I don’t keep up with the anime threads, it is really interesting to read Dome and Rob’s posts.

But when my wife and I saw this in the theatre, we were just blown away—she later bought me the DVD, which I need to break out and watch a couple of times so I can properly address George’s concern with character treatment and development.

I do think that your comparison to ‘Alice’ is not necessarily off-base, as the mixture of the real and spirit worlds in Spirited Away is not always clear. But don’t forget that the national religion of Japan (Shinto) is basically animist and as such many ordinary objects of the real world are imbued with spirits—so this admixture of the real and the spirit is much less confusing to Japanese than to many Westerners.

Don’t forget that the spirits are like humans—some are mostly good, some pretty bad, some childlike and most a mixture and just want to get on with their jobs and lives (if life is the proper term).

I don’t recall that the character inconsistency was not logical, but as I mentioned, I’ll need to watch a couple more times to comment accurately.

 

[MartinTeller]

People who are loving can still get angry, you know. Maybe you're confused because you don't expect character depth in animation. This is why I like Miyazaki, and have been turned off by most other anime. He refuses to paint characters as "evil". He recognizes that homicidal maniacs are not simply homicidal maniacs, that most people are just doing what they think is best. This theme is especially strong in Princess Mononoke, which you might want to check out.

 

[Rob Tomlin]

I am a little late to this discussion, so I apologize in advance for going back to a movie that was already discussed, Throne of Blood, which I watched for the first time last night (via Netflix).

First of all, I love Kurosawa, so I had high expectations going in on this one....and Kurosawa delivered yet again. And how!

george Kaplan wrote:

Throne of Blood is far down my Kurosawa list to be honest. I put it in the Hidden Fortress range, far, far below films like High and Low, Ikiru, Red Beard, or Rashomon. I think he did Shakespeare better with Ran even, which does a better job of exemplifying the surrealistic absurdity of life that comes through in Shakespeare, at least when I read it.

It is ironic that for this particular film I find myself agreeing very much with someone I usually disagree with, and disagreeing with someone that I usually agree with!

I definitely consider Throne of Blood to be Top Tier Kurosawa. It has everything that I love about Kurosawa movies in it in spades....incredible imagery, superb acting, and a fantastic story. Kurosawa's framing is impeccable in this movie (it usually is) and I found many of the images to be as impressive, or more so, than in many of his other movies.

As George said, the acting was spot on. Mifune at his best.

And the story, (being taken from Shakespeare obviously helps) was completely engaging from beginning to end for me. I was completely hooked on this one 15 minutes in to the movie.

While I agree with Seth that Kurosawa may have done a better job with Shakespeare in Ran (which is actually my favorite Kurosawa film), it is by a relatively small margin.

I need some more time for this one to sink in, but I may very well place Throne of Blood at the number 3 spot for Kurosawa films (behind Ran and Seven Samurai)!

Like George, I will add this one to my list of must buy Criterions. In fact, today is "Boss's Day", and I have a feeling that my secretary may be giving me a Gift Certificate to DVD Planet. Now I know what to buy!

 

[Lew Crippen]

Welcome to the discussion Rob. As we are only going to be discussing ten films, you really can’t be too late.

Even though Spirited Away was one of my picks, I have already learned a lot from the anime fans.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Oddly enough, there's a cultural taboo against showing pubic hair

I rarely see pubic hair in American porn and they never have to resort to mosaic censoring to avoid it.

 

[Rob Lutter]

Actually, IIRC, the law that says you cannot show the genital regions has been taken out of the books... just no one has yet broken the taboo by emaciating the mosiacs from porn. It's kinda like not saying curse words on cable television... you are allowed to do it in the US, but it's never done because the words "fuck, shit, piss, cunt, motherfucker, cocksucker and tits" (to paraphrase George Carlin ) are taboo amongst the middle of America

Everyone is just so used to it

 

[Woo Jae]

Hmm - I guess I will chime in here with a link that explains quite a lot of my fascination with anime...

Scroll Down to Why I Like Anime for a very good explanation of why anime can be a valid art form.

http://www.serc.rmit.edu.au/~ashelto...page_site.html

In my opinion, anime is a unique combination of plot, characterization, and story - much like a movie. And Characterization is a big big part of anime. One of the biggest strengths that an anime would have over "Western" animation is focus on Character development and depth. The world is not just a place where good and evil battle in anime (though plenty of such types of anime exist).

I will post more thoughts on Spirited Away as it relates to this topic...

 

[Brook K]

Going further on Lin and "the boiler room guy", like I said, both portray gruff exteriors when they don't know Chihirio. Like Martin says, they'd rather not be bothered. But when they observe her actions and courage and speak with her, they are quickly won over, just as we, the audience, are won over.

Perhaps George, since you were not won over by Chihiro, you don't see that the characters in the movie would be.

Also, Chihiro removes the pollution from Noface that was causing his ill disposition. He had become corrupted by the modern world and finds happiness in choosing a simpler way of life.

As for Zeniba, she is used to being locked in combat with her sister and responding violently. But when confronted with kindness and sincerity, she reciprocates. Remember her sister is also violent and unpredictable, but loves her baby and tries, in her own way, to be a good mother.

As Martin states, one of Miyazaki's chief attributes is the depth and complexity he gives to his characters. You rarely see the carbon copy "bad guys" common to animation and adventure stories.

 

[george kaplan]

While there's nothing wrong with that, it does lead to an animation style that I am less impressed with.

Someone mentioned anime being an art form. I don't disagree at all that it's art, it's just a style of art that I don't like. But that doesn't mean I don't think it's art.

As I said, perhaps my opinion will change at some point in the future, but for now, anime is an artform I see has having lots of substance, but a kind of style I don't enjoy.

 

[MartinTeller]

The characters are drawn with large eyes because the eyes are key to expressing emotion. The hair colors and styles helps establish their race. For someone who takes such a strong stance against racism, you seem awfully eager to pigeonhole characters into distinct ethnic groups.

 

[Angelo.M]

Joining in late, if that's OK. Not sure if I have anything substantial to add except for a few brief observations.

Spirited Away was my favorite film of 2002, and I believe the best film of 2002. No other film so totally enveloped me in its world, and no other film depicted a world with rules so otherworldly. It's a cliche, maybe, but the film really took me somewhere.

The sequence from boarding the train to arriving at the house was on another level. Just stunning.

Anime is definitely an acquired taste. Spirited plays with some of the conventions of the style, but it breaks with others. Some of the characters are rooted firmly in it, while others (like Granny), are a more unusual amalgamation of features of anime and Western animation.

 

[Rob Tomlin]

The thing that impressed me the most with Spirited Away was the incredible imagination that was required to come up with some very interesting and unique "creatures".

Although this is obviously anime, I would place the story in the genre of fantasy, which isn't my favorite genre by any means. That being said, I enjoyed Spirited Away a lot...even more so after having time to reflect on it.

I can understand why George doesn't particularly care for the animation style, as it is quite different than what we get from Disney etc. I agree that it is an acquired taste. One that I acquired about 20 minutes into the movie!

 

[Angelo.M]

Watching it right now, the scene in which Chihiro tries to get a job. Great stuff.

 

[george kaplan]

Martin,

Frankly, the tone of your last post is pretty inappropriate. I obviously am not as appreciative of this film as you are, but there's no need to get personal about it.

No, as someone who abhors racism, I am merely curious why these anime characters don't look very asian. It's not necessarily a problem, anymore than Hollywood's history of having white characters play asians, but I do find it rather odd. That's all.

 

[Rob Lutter]

I watched the default which was indeed the English dub. But wouldn't there be the same problem in translation with English subtitles. I don't speak Japanese.

Translation between a dub and literal subtitles are totally different....

While the goal of subtitles is to present an accurate description of the exact thing being said (as it is in most cases), the dub takes the lip movements into affect.

During the "ADR" process... the dialogue in many/all scenes is changed to match the lip movements of the characters (after all, they are animated for Japanese words), which, in effect, can change the entire mood of a scene.

Emotion is universal... and the Japanese voice actors are some of the best in the biz. I highly suggest that you watch the film again in Japanese w/ subtitles. Think about it, would you ever be caught dead watching a dub of a live-action movie? Is there a difference?

And that's my little spiel

 

[MartinTeller]

Well you can't have it both ways. Either it's deep, complex character development, or it's immediately obvious to millions of 3 year olds. Which is it?

I don't think Spirited Away is especially deep and complex. It's more complex than your average cartoon, but it shouldn't go over your head. It's strange to me that you are apparently baffled by shifts in characters' moods, and don't understand motivations that seemed obvious to me. Do you never have shifts in mood? When you're angry, do you stay that way forever? Perhaps you went into it with a certain expectation of how cartoon characters are supposed to act? Or again, could be a problem with the dub translation.

 

[MartinTeller]

I just watched this scene again, and I think I know why you're confused.

In front of everyone, Lin has to appear to hate humans as much as the rest of them. When they are alone, however, she is free to be friendly with Chihiro. It's actually the abrupt shift that helps makes this clear.

 

[Brook K]

Actually, George and Martin are both right, I had melded the No Face and River Spirit scenes into one event in my head.

George, Miyazaki has a strong enviromentalist streak in him, and this is a subtheme in several of his films, probably most prominent in Princess Mononoke.

I think the chacterizations are complex in that they are very human with good attributes and flaws, rather than completely heroic or cartoonishly evil; but they are also easily understandable by children because the films are fantastically imaginative, and several, like Spirited Away, My Neighbor Totoro, and Kiki's Delivery Service have universal themes of children finding their own inner strength and purpose and becoming independent beings.

There's another difference that you could probably write a book about between Disney and Miyazaki. In all 3 of those films I mention above, the children have both a loving mother and father while the majority of Disney animated characters seem to come from broken homes or feature one or both parents deceased. But that may be too simplistic an idea since in Miyazaki's more adventure oriented films (at least the ones I've seen - Castle in the Sky, Lupin III, Princess Mononoke) parents are either absent/irrelevant or deceased.

As for dub vs. sub, my position is always that I want to hear the actors specifically selected by the director. This truly has an affect on the performance in Spirited Away. The American dub actress Daveigh Chase sounds about 8 years old (I don't know how old she actually is, but she was much better suited to her role as Lilo in Lilo & Stitch) and has a rushed and sometimes whiny vocal tone, while the Japanese actress is clearly older and more mature, closer to 12 which is more fitting a coming-of-age story.

But note that I loved Spirited Away the first time I saw it, which was in a theater with the dub. I didn't get to hear the original soundtrack until DVD. Ditto Totoro and Kiki, which I fell in love with on dubbed VHS.

 

[MartinTeller]

Indeed... I've been listening to this dub, and the voices are extremely different. In the dub, she sounds like a very young child. In the original Japanese, she can't be any younger than 12, and I'd say closer to 14.

 

[george kaplan]

Well I've already returned the dvd, so I can't watch it again, and I'm not sure if my wife will want me to just give it to my son, or turn it into a Christmas present, but once I buy it for him, I will check out the subtitles.