Let's look at component video cables (1 Viewer)

[DaleBesh]

"Entirely possible Dale however as you pointed out, you knew the identity and you were watching for a while. Is this really the best way to determine a difference? I think not. A better, if not arguably the best, approach would've been to use a switching device where someone did the switching and you focussed on a particular image or series of images."


Actually I think it was the best way, why would I want to introduce other factors in the link like a switch?
And on the surface a fixed 'pattern' might have been more appropriate with gathering empirical data, as would having another party doing the switching. but the fact I noted the same differences regardless of the constantly changing image on the screen, speaks for itself.

Again, I am not promoting one cable over another, nor am I recommending a way to perform an evaluation, I am only relating an observation. Again, the differences were small but they were present, and results consistent. I had no prejudice one cable over the other, the fact is this was by accident, and noting that there was a difference is what made me repeat it several times for verification.

 

[Mark Rich]

My recomendation for cable buying is similar to what the cable makers suggest. Buy them, take them home and try them. If you can see/hear an improvemnet keep them otherwise return them.
I apply this practice to all purchaces I make: Cars, bikes, computers, cameras, clothing, monitors, amps, speakers etc.. Not scientific? who cares! Seat of the pants testing has served me well over the years and I'm the one who has to live with the choices I make.
Why stop with cables?
Why buy a more expensive TV, amp or speakers? Are they really better? Maybe a series of scientific tests (DBT) should be performed to convince us we are not being scammed by the manufacturers or worse deceived by our senses.
How many times have we been duped into buying the latest and greatest technology to find it replaced in a year or two with something better. Our investment in this technology? Worthless! Component manufacturers stick it to us far more often than the cables guys do. Now we are being convinced that DVI is the only way to go and we should all rush to the nearest store and buy a new monitor, DVD player and while we are at it the cable to make it all work.

Maybe Chu could do these DBT tests for us and post the results? I'm sure some of the cable manufacturers would be willing to provide the cables.

 

[DaleBesh]

It would be near impossible to set up 'standards' per se, and the loan and trial policy of some dealers is probably the best we could hope for.
Of course not all manufacturers will agree to publish their specifications, and even if they did how could the average consumer relate that to anything they may perceive as better or worse?
To me cables are just another component. And from a systemic perspective, may have advantages or disadvantages depending of specific applications.
What Chu has provided is useful and practical information especially with regards to cable loss over long runs.
But beyond that, trial and error may or may not reveal differences that some may and some may not perceive.
My situation was isolated, and I would offer it in the same vein as clearing off a layer of dust on a monitor screen and seeing a difference in picture quality. I know what I saw but would never try to generalize the 'finding' without a lot more experimentation. But I am using the 'better' cable as it looks better.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well a fairly well made, wide bandwidth switch isn't such a daunting task to buy or make. Consider a well equipped news or sports bureau bringing you live, at the moment, breaking news during the olympics. Goes through more than one switch I'll tell you. Not only that but 'shudder' they've got video cables and sundry wires running all over the place. Parallel too I might add. Then it goes out over the airwaves where we can watch it on HDTV. Boggles the mind.
Advertising wise, constantly putting the ball in the consumer's lap and not informing them of how to do a test or the limitations on many commonly used practices does no good to me. It does no good to you. Time proximate testing, which means rapid switching, finds great practical utility. As I mentioned with the eye exam story above, there's a reason why it works. It allows you to discern small differences that are otherwise masked by time. Recall how Pluto was discovered? Rapid switching gentlemen...errrrr...ladies too if you're out there reading this.

 

[Mark Rich]

Chu,

Unless I missed it somewhere can you please answer Chris's question above re your background/occupation? Your postings are definitely of a very technical nature indicating a large reference library or background/education.

Thanks

 

[DaleBesh]

Hmmm .. switch? Did not need it then, do not need it now.

 

[Chu Gai]

I've undergraduate degrees in the acoustic sciences as well as one in chemistry. Moreover I've an advanced degree in marketing psychology. I have strong personal interests in experimental design, statistical quality control, surge protection, magic, know more than a little about imaging sciences, ham radio, antenna theory, maintain casual but close relationships with individuals in statistics, psychoacoustics, material sciences, etc. Keep in mind though that a degree doesn't mean you're right. Fleishman & Pons of cold fusion fame come to mind, as does a Harvard Professor that believes in aliens. I really don't think much of what I touched upon here is all that deep. You should be able to verify it by contacting researchers in a variety of companies. Tektronix, HP, engineering departments of most colleges and universities, Belden, etc.

The switch comment Dale was along the lines of making quick A/B comparisons without the need for physically making/breaking connections. It's pretty much about shortening the time and of course, keeping the identity of the cables independent of one's choice.

 

[Chu Gai]

BTW, I don't have a medical degree, but that doesn't stop me from knowing that Reiki, magnets in my shoes, Q-Ray bracelets (the gov't finally got those bastards), homeopathic preparations, colored light treatments for cancer, Benny Hinn 'cures' for terminally ill patients, are a bunch of hooey. Recommended viewing IMHO are 'Crazy People', 'Leap of Faith', 'Putney Swope', etc. Ummmmmm, and I think Star Wars sucks too.

 

[DaleBesh]

If one cable produced only a B&W picture, and the other full color, let's say due to a defective connector in one S-Video cable, would I need to have installed a switch and performed a blind study to prove it?
Why is it so difficult to generalize that one cable produces a slightly less sharp and/or less saturated image?
I wholeheartedly agree, perception is not always reality, but other times it is.

 

[Chris Hovanic]

Chu Gai Thanks for the resume... I too don't always think that a degree makes you correct. But someone with a degree or years of experience in a field that tells the facts is a little harder to discredit.

As I mentioned before your responses appear to be fact and very much appreciated.

When can we expect your next installment about cables?

 

[Mark Rich]

Chu,
Little sensitive aren't we? If you want to become the Ralph Nader of the cable industry then someone is bound to ask you about your background. It was a simple, innocent question. I just wanted to see if you were an electrical engineer,cable installer, copier repair man etc.
FWIW I also have friends in high/low places

 

[DaleBesh]

I see lots of good things in Chu's recommendations actually.
He certainly seems to come from a technical backgroud at a minimum.
As a now retired electrical test engineer, my perception has been tested numerous times, and I found out what I can trust and what I need to question and further assess.

Everything is relevant really, if it is important enough to spend time on. Fortunately, I have been 'trained' to the level of knowing where I need to draw the line. I know what is good and what is bad to my ears and eyes. And if I can not perceive a difference it ceases being important, for purposes of HT anyway!

 

[Mark Rich]

Dale,
I agree with you. Chu has posted a lot of good info on this and other HT Forums. It was certainly educational when he challenged some manufacturers over at AVS special guest forum.I just wished he would lighten up and let us poor misguided fools enjoy our beliefs in some cables making a positive difference. Yes, I know that will never happen but I can dream cant I?
I'm almost afraid to admit my latest addiction to experimenting with ac cords

 

[Chu Gai]

Well Chris, having a degree, even a doctorates in say EE doesn't qualify you as an expert in all areas of EE which is damned broad. Just as being a gynecologist doesn't qualify you as a neurosurgeon. Takes experience in a particular area.

No, not sensitive Mark, although I'm not a big fan of Nader. I think the experimentation is fine Mark, I really do. I just think you need to refine your technique and that'll help you get better, more reliable results. The world will beat a path to a company that makes cables, power cords, etc. if it can be scientifically demonstrated and independently corroborated that there is a difference.

BTW, if you only knew what I found out about that quack over at AVS in the special guests area that made those funny power cords.

 

[DaleBesh]

Making power cords, or any cables for that matter is an open market. You could make damn good ones too (construction-wise), it is only the consumer that has to be concerned whether they 'sound' or 'look' good.
If you attest your power cord will open up the soundstage, who can say it does not? Critics? Yes, but some may agree with you.
It does not even matter whether YOU really believe it or not, it only matters if the purchaser believes it enough to buy them.
What a great industry! It is not only provides reasonable to very well made cables to audiophiles and videophiles, but enough 'hype' to fertilize major agriculture across this great land of ours.

 

[Shane Martin]

Dale,

BTW, if you only knew what I found out about that quack over at AVS in the special guests area that made those funny power cords.

Why are cheap shots at someone like this necessary?

Now I realize why I use the ignore list here. Back to using it.

 

[Chu Gai]

i wish you'd figure out a way to use it effectively. must be a bitch in life to adopt the Eeyore philosophy and keep running around in circles.

i guess Enron was a cheap shot too.

 

[Mark Rich]

Dale,
The same can be said of speakers, amplifiers, pre-amps etc..
Is one better than the next? Were double blind tests performed to prove that a Krell's $10,000 amp really does sound better than the far cheaper Outlaw/Rotel? How about $20,000 Wilson speakers versus Paradigm?
If these demands for scientific testing/proof are to be made against the cable makers then why not the component manufacturers? Consumers blindly buy the latest and greatest components every couple of years based on marketing hype (and paid advertising driven reviews) yet whine about spending $50 on cables.
Even if you don't belive in some cables making a positive improvement at least a good set will last you through years and years of upgrades.

 

[Chu Gai]

so long as you don't yank em. but for the moment, let's not extend the argument beyond it's original scope.

 

[DaleBesh]

Mark,
I know it typifies much of this industry. In both a work environment and less at home, my experience is that cables are often the weakest link.
Fortunately, consumer demand has weeded out really cheap cables which on occassion in the old days of 'hi fi', had me flinging them across the room in disgust, when I found one to be the source of noise or intermittency.
Along that line, good construction and materials as well as a modicum of maintenance can minimize any potential failures, as well as some care in selection with regards to specific applications. As Chu has made a most reasonable effort to demonstrate.
The same can be said of other components where more personal and subjective assessments come into play, and are balanced more critically against our checkbooks.